Kir-Lanan ECL...

[kreynolds]

FRCS errata says to change it from +6 (which it never was, as it was originally +2) to +8. Soldarin's list has it on there twice, +6 and +4. I came up with +4 (+3.7 rounded up) as well, and it looks fine to me.

Does ECL +4 sound reasonable to you for a Kir-Lanan?

 

[drnuncheon]

FRCS errata says to change it from +6 (which it never was, as it was originally +2) to +8. Soldarin's list has it on there twice, +6 and +4. I came up with +4 (+3.7 rounded up) as well, and it looks fine to me.

Does ECL +4 sound reasonable to you for a Kir-Lanan?

+4 seems awfully low. I think a first-level kir-lanan fighter would absolutely dominate over a 5th level human fighter. Same BAB, better skills, better physical stats, natural armor, Use Magic Device, spell-like abilities, huge speed/maneuverability advantage and a feat to make it better...slightly lower hp is all they'd have.

Using Soldarin's...

2.4 (4 HD Monstrous Humanoid)
.5 (Flight)
.6 (+3 natural AC)
.2 (extra attacks - primary is 2 claws)
.5 (spell-like abilities - rebuke, RoE, neg energy touch)
.6 (+4 Str, +2 Dex)\
.2 (racial +4 Hide bonus)
-----
5.0
-.1 (-2 Wis)

Total - 4.9

I didn't include the 'healed by negative energy/harmed by positive energy' because they pretty much cancel out - especially if it's common knowledge. It might be harder to get healed in a good-aligned party, but if you're fighting evil clerics you don't have to worry about their spontaneous inflict spells.

I think Soldarin's calculator undervalues some things - like flight, where there's no modifier for the maneuverability or the speed, so I'd be inclined to adjust it even upwards from the result I got - probably to a +6, because with flight of 90' (good), they effectively have a permanent nondispellable fly spell on them, or inherent wings of flying if you prefer - and those are worth most of the equipment allowance of a 7th or 8th level character.

J

 

[dkilgo]

Kreynolds how did you come up with +4? I am still in figuring stage, and I am closer drnuncheon.

EDIT:

This is what I got with Soldarin's system.

Size= +0 (medium-size)
HD= +2.4 (4 HD)
Speed= +.5 (flight)
AC= +.6 (+3 nat armor)
Attacks= +0 (the system says nothing about 2 claw attacks. It only talks about extra arms, heads etc.)
Reach=+0 (standard)
Spell-like abilities= +.5 (ray of enfeeblement, Negative Energy touch, and rebuke undead)
Ability Mods= +.55 (+4 STR, +2 DEX, -1 WIS)
Skilss= +.2 (+4 Hide racial bonus)
Weakness= -.5 (harmed by positive energy)

Final ECL = 4 (Actual toatl is 4.25, but by Soldarin's methos you have to round down.)

Why are you giving it a +.2 for just 2 claws? The kir-lanaan does not have extra limbs, or extra heads.

 

[kreynolds]

-.1 (-2 Wis)

A Kir-Lanan's Wisdom penalty is only -1 (9), not -2.

 

[drnuncheon]

A Kir-Lanan's Wisdom penalty is only -1 (9), not -2.

Ah, but -2 is the smallest penalty - and when figuring out stat bonuses, 8 and 9 are -2, just as 10-11 is +0, 12-13 is +2, 14-15 is +4, etc.

It's because the 'standard spread' of stats for NPCs is three 11s and three 10s.

J

 

[kreynolds]

Ah, but -2 is the smallest penalty - and when figuring out stat bonuses, 8 and 9 are -2, just as 10-11 is +0, 12-13 is +2, 14-15 is +4, etc.

Oh yes. Good point. I overlooked that. Thanks for the info.

Still, that only brings my new total to 4.2 (4.3 if I consider the ability to fly a .6 modifier, or 4.4 if I consider it a .7 modifier). Rounding down, that's a +4 ECL. I still don't think that it should be higher. I've been mulling this over for a little while. A 0-level Kir-Lanan, when compared with a 4th level fighter (or any 4th level class for that matter) is indeed more powerful. However, when I compare those to 6th level characters (or NPCs), the Kir-Lanan can barely keep up. Against 8th level characters (or NPCs), the Kir-Lanan begins to fall way behind in the power market.

For example, it's Negative Energy Touch doesn't improve with level. It only gets better if it's Charisma goes up. A save DC of 12 isn't that hard to beat for 8th level characters. This is what the classes, at 8th level, straight from the DMG, no magic items, would have to roll to make the Fort save in order to negate the temporary Strength damage...

Barbarian - 4 or higher
Bard - 9 or higher
Cleric - 3 or higher
Druid - 5 or higher
Fighter - only fails on a 1
Monk - 3 or higher
Paladin - only fails on a 1
Ranger - 5 or higher
Rogue - 8 or higher
Sorcerer - 8 or higher
Wizard - 9 or higher

The Kir-Lanan isn't very powerful anymore.

The same also applies to it's Ray of Enfeeblement spell-like ability, which has an even lower Fort save DC of 10 (I believe it suffers a saving throw penalty for having a negative Cha modifier, but if it doesn't, let me know). This is what the classes, at 8th level, straight from the DMG, no magic items, would have to roll to make the Fort save in order to negate this spell-like ability...

Barbarian - only fails on a 1
Bard - 7 or higher
Cleric - only fails on a 1
Druid - only fails on a 1
Fighter - only fails on a 1
Monk - only fails on a 1
Paladin - only fails on a 1
Ranger - only fails on a 1
Rogue - 6 or higher
Sorcerer - 6 or higher
Wizard - 7 or higher

This ability is now next to useless.

The Kir-Lanan's Rebuke Undead ability continues to improve, of course, but really, it's not that impressive to begin with. Assuming the Kir-Lanan is ECL +6, and it has 2 class levels (in any class, it doesn't matter), the best it could do on a rebuke check with it's listed stats (assuming it rolls a 20, which equals a 19 because of it's low Charisma) is 11 HD of undead. That's horrible, especially given a nat 20 roll on the check.

However, there are some things that the Kir-Lanan has that will always be useful. Claw attacks are great. It's awesome to be able to fall back on some good old fashioned natural weapons. It's ability to fly is terrific (by the way, I agree with you that this is a strong ability, and I think the ECL mod for this should be .6, but definately no more than .7). Natural armor is great. It's with you forever. However, it's also a shame when you want to improve upon it but magic doesn't stack with it. If the Kir-Lanan wants Natural Armor of +6, it essentially has to waste half of the cash just to get it. Not a big deal, honestly, but still. Finally, the +4 to Hide is nice to have.

In summary, if you stack a ECL 6 Kir-Lanan up to 4th level characters, it's a little more powerful, but not by much. Stack it up to 6th level characters though, and it's costly abilities aren't so great anymore. Stack it up to 8th level characters, even if it has a couple class levels, and it'll get stomped if it doesn't fly away screaming in terror.

Essentially, I think the ECL should be +4. However, I wouldn't allow a 0-level Kir-Lanan to enter a game with 4th level characters. I would, however, allow it enter a game with 6th level characters. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that if you rule it's ECL to be +6, you are permanently stripping the Kir-Lanan of 2 class levels, and as the fellow party members continue to level, even if the Kir-Lanan's ECL catches up, the Kir-Lanan will always be a good distance behind in power. At 15th level, it's supernatural and spell-like abilities are next to worthless.

If it's started with an ECL of +6, it would be balanced with human characters in a 6th level party (more or less, but mostly less). However, it will rapidly lose power as it and the party continues to level. In a game with 6th level characters and a 0-level Kir-Lanan, I think that by the time a Kir-Lanan's ECL catches up with the others in a few levels, it will even out just fine.

Granted, a player wouldn't take the stats of the Kir-Lanan right out of the FRCS. They would roll stats and apply the racial ability modifiers. So, there's a chance that they might have a much better Charisma, and much better stats all around. Still, if the ECL is too high, it will never be even close to normal characters.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

 

[drnuncheon]

One thing I want to mention first: Kir-lanans don't have a Cha penalty, they have a Wis penalty. Also note that the fort save on the negative energy touch only negates the Str damage, not the negative energy damage. And I missed the fact that the touch healed the kir-lanan, that makes it even better!

I agree that with most classes, they're going to be weak - especially with a spellcasting class, who are almost always a bad deal with ECL (unless you let natural spellcasters stack sorc levels on top of their natural levels).

But let's compare a human Ftr8 with a Kir-lanan Ftr2 (assuming ECL 6). Assume we're using the same stats for each character, before racial adjustments.

Fighter has BAB 8, Kir-lanan has BAB 6 (equal to the 'second string' warriors like clerics) So, advantage fighter at first glance. But, the kir-lanan is going to have strength 4 higher than the fighter - so they'll actually have equal attack values, and the kir-lanan will be doing 2-3 points more damage per hit.

Fighter has 8d10 hp (average 44), kir-lanan has 4d8+2d10 (avg 29). Advantage to the fighter, definitely.

Saves, the kir-lanan will rock all over the fighter on. The fighter is going to have +6/+2/+2 for his base saves (F/R/W). The kir-lanan has +4/+5/+3. Sure, the Fort save is lower, but the other two are better. I'd say advantage: kir-lanan.

Skills - the fighter's skill list sucks. The Kir-lanan dominates over the fighter here, with access to several rogue skills.

Feats - the fighter has 6, the kir-lanan has 3.

Since they get equal equipment allowances, the kir-lanan is going to have an AC of 4 higher than the fighter - 1 for Dex, 3 for natural armor.

The kir-lanan has flight for free.

So, basically, discounting the spell-like abilities, the kir-lanan is trading 15 hit points and 3 feats for great flight, +4 AC, +2 damage, better skills, and better saves. I think that's a more than fair trade.

Moving up in levels, I think the 'losses' you take for being a kir-lanan will shrink, not grow. Looking at 20th level characters (human ftr 20 vs. kir-lanan ftr 14):

BAB +20 vs. BAB +18 - still same number of hits, and the kir-lanan is still +4 str ahead of the human, so still hitting the same and doing 2-3 points more.

Hit points will still have the 15 point gap (ftr 110, kir-lanan 95) but that's a lot smaller at level 20 than it is at lower levels.

Saves: Ftr F/R/W of 12/6/6, kir-lanan of 10/9/7. Still better for the kir-lanan.

Skills: Gargoyle, still ahead.

Feats: 12 for the fighter, 9 for the gargoyle. This and hit points are the only place the fighter still has an advantage.

Flight and the natural armor are still equally useful - the fighter would have to spend 40000 gp just to catch up (wings of flying & amulet of natural armor), which is enough for the kir-lanan to get some other armor-boosting item (ring of protection +4 perhaps?) and maintain his lead.

Again, I think it's a fair trade - it's even better here than at the lower levels, because 15 hp and 3 feats doesn't mean nearly as much.

If you only made it ECL +4, the kir-lanan would wipe the floor with the human fighter, surpassing him in attacks and damage, almost catching up in hit points, getting even better saves, only being 2 feats behind...

Basically, ask yourself this: Would you, as a fighter, trade 2 feats and 4 hit points for +2 damage (on everything! That's more than a feat there), +2 dex, natural armor, and flight? I sure as hell would.

Now, a kir-lanan spellcaster would certainly suck, missing out on 6 levels - but hey, half-orc spellcasters suck too, and they don't get a discount for it.

J

 

[kreynolds]

One thing I want to mention first: Kir-lanans don't have a Cha penalty, they have a Wis penalty.

Good point. Then for the Ray of Enfeeblement, increase those laughable save DCs by 1.

Also note that the fort save on the negative energy touch only negates the Str damage, not the negative energy damage.

No big deal. At only 3 times per day, it's not a real powerful ability. The healing part is handy, but that's it. In fact, that's pretty much what it's all about, the healing part.

Since they get equal equipment allowances, the kir-lanan is going to have an AC of 4 higher than the fighter - 1 for Dex, 3 for natural armor.

But if you put the Kir-Lanan in full-plate, he'll lose his Dex bonus to AC, so he'll only be 3 points higher.

Still, I disagree with you about the gaps getting smaller. A good part of the Kir-Lanan's ECL (0.5) comes from its Ray of Enfeeblement and Negative Energy Touch. At 8th level, the DCs are terribly low. Higher than that, and Ray of Enfeeblement is next to useless. It's negative energy touch is still half useful though. It's nice because it's 3 times per day healing when you smack someone, but the likelyhood that you'll actually can some Strength smackage on is next to none. But anyways, I've already covered all this, so I won't bore you to death with it.

Personally, when I compare a 0-level Kir-Lanan with a 6th level fighter, all I see is a raging barbarian that can fly, so to speak. The Kir-Lanan isn't that impressive.

 

[Pax]

But let's compare a human Ftr8 with a Kir-lanan Ftr2 (assuming ECL 6). Assume we're using the same stats for each character, before racial adjustments.

*Oni No Snippage passes through*

Feats - the fighter has 6, the kir-lanan has 3.

Since they get equal equipment allowances, the kir-lanan is going to have an AC of 4 higher than the fighter - 1 for Dex, 3 for natural armor.

Depending, of course, on armor choices -- and IIRC, the Kir Lanaan do not wear traditional PHB-style armor; they have their own, racial armor which is the equivalent of Leather, only. As a flying creature, I fail to see how most forms of Heavy-class armor would permit continued flight, while being worn. Even Mithril Full Plate would be too restrictive, or, would have to leave large swaths of the Kir-Lanan uncovered (the wings, and areas around the wing-shoulders ...).

Also, your count of feats is slightly off. A human Fighter-8 should have 8 feats (racial; character levels 1, 3, and 6; fighter levels 1, 2, 4, 6, and 8); the Kir-Lanan will have 4 feats (racial/monster levels; character level 1; fighter levels 1 and 2). That's a gap one wider than you listed. Also note, the Fighter's higher BAB qualifies him (IIRC) for Improved Critical, not to mention having enough fighter levels for Weapon Specialisation. That's a bit of further advantage to the human fighter, IMO.

The kir-lanan has flight for free.

You won't find me arguing that this isn't a BIG advantage -- IMO, aside form the coolness factor of the Kir-Lanan concept, it's the main mechanics reason to play a Kir-Lanan!

So, basically, discounting the spell-like abilities, the kir-lanan is trading 15 hit points and 3 feats for great flight, +4 AC, +2 damage, better skills, and better saves. I think that's a more than fair trade.

I think it should be reasonable to impose the same limits in terms of armor and encumbrance on ANY creature that flies through means other than pure magic, as are imposed on flying steeds. So to retain that flight, the Kir-Lanan has to accept a more restricted choice of armor. Also, the Kir-Lanan is not gettign the +1 skill point / level of the human fighter (of course); I don't think we should overlook ANY differences, do you?

Saves: Ftr F/R/W of 12/6/6, kir-lanan of 10/9/7. Still better for the kir-lanan.

By only 2 points (Human Fighter base saves add to 24, Kir-Lanan Fighter base saves add to 26). Less significant at higher levels than at lower levels.

Skills: Gargoyle, still ahead.

But behind in terms of actual skill points, I believe.

Feats: 12 for the fighter, 9 for the gargoyle. This and hit points are the only place the fighter still has an advantage.

Um. Human Fighter(20) ... try 20 feats (racial; character levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18; fighter levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20). Well more than 12.

Kir-Lanan Fighter(14), that's 14 feats (race/monster level, character levels 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12; fighter levels 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 14).

The gap has widened to 6 ....

Flight and the natural armor are still equally useful - the fighter would have to spend 40000 gp just to catch up (wings of flying & amulet of natural armor), which is enough for the kir-lanan to get some other armor-boosting item (ring of protection +4 perhaps?) and maintain his lead.

Given we're talking about an FRCS race, I feel quite confident in pointing out that the fighter can catch up -- and then some -- for well less than 40,000gp. There are several methods to get flight -- usable at will -- other than Wings of Flying. The Winged Mask, IIRC, from Magic of Faerun, is significantly cheaper (for the minor drawback of highlighting your presence whenever you fly).

Also, the ffighter can gain +3 natural AC, as you noted, from the Amulet. For the Kir-Lanan to get the same +3 armor beyond their base state, costs SIGNIFICANTLY more than it cost the fighter (as they would need to get an EPIC Amulet of Natural Armor +6 ... !!).

Again, I think it's a fair trade - it's even better here than at the lower levels, because 15 hp and 3 feats doesn't mean nearly as much.

15 hit points and six feats. Loss of natural armor edge for (in the eyes of a human Fighter-20) is a PITTANCE in monetary terms; logically, the inability to wear heavy armor at ALL (resulting in a LOWER net AC for the Kir-Lanan), if flight is desired.

If you only made it ECL +4, the kir-lanan would wipe the floor with the human fighter, surpassing him in attacks and damage, almost catching up in hit points, getting even better saves, only being 2 feats behind...

No; two more levels would, at 20th ECL, give the Kir-Lanan only 2 more feats (Character-15 and Fighter-16), narrowing the gap from 6 feats to 4 feats. You really need to learn to count feats better ... no offense.

 

[drnuncheon]

But if you put the Kir-Lanan in full-plate, he'll lose his Dex bonus to AC, so he'll only be 3 points higher.

Full plate has a Max Dex bonus of +1, so it all depends on where the fighter's dex score is at. Still, +3 is nothing to sneeze at, and there's always mithril or something similar.

Still, I disagree with you about the gaps getting smaller. A good part of the Kir-Lanan's ECL (0.5) comes from its Ray of Enfeeblement and Negative Energy Touch. At 8th level, the DCs are terribly low. Higher than that, and Ray of Enfeeblement is next to useless. It's negative energy touch is still half useful though.

I was completely ignoring the spell-like abilities when I posted the comparison, and the kir-lanan still came out about as good as the fighter at ECL +6. That suggests to me more that Soldarin's calculator doesn't work very well in this case than it does that +6 is too high. Set aside the calculator for a bit and look at the numbers that I posted. ECL 4 is way too low.

At ECL 4, compared to a human Ftr4, the kir-lanan has +2 to hit in melee, +2 damage with all melee and thrown weapons, 90' flight, +3 natural armor, better skills, better saves. Note that we are not considering the spell-like abilities at all.

The Ftr 4 has 4 more hit points and 4 more feats. Would you give +2 damage to all weapons for a single feat? +3 natural armor for a single feat? (Epic feats don't even do that!) 90' flight for a single feat? +4 to Hide for a single feat? That's what you're effectively doing if you set the kir-lanans at ECL 4 - you get far more than you give up, and we haven't even gotten to the saves and the spell-like abilities.

Better to-hit, better damage, better armor, better mobility, better skills, better saves - the kir-lanan is just flat out better than the fighter if it's at ECL 4. If I were a human fighter, I'd be pretty peeved at a DM who let one of those into the game, because it'd basically completely overshadow me in my area of specialty. The only thing I'd have going for me is...woo! Maybe weapon focus and power attack...and I /still/ couldn't match the damage output.

J