D&D 5E L&L Sept 16th . The Latest on Skills

No offense, but I think that's a bad idea. If skills granted advantage, then skilled players would have no reason to try and get circumstances in their favor since advantage doesn't stack.
To me, the issue is do we want to model expertise as offering greater consistency, greater capability, or both. There's also the issue of setting up DC tables that capture the differing scales of both skill checks and attribute checks.

One possible solution is that a character untrained in a skill is automatically disadvantaged for the roll, which having the skill training then negates (and can be further advantaged by circumstance.) It reinforces the utility of skill training while allowing the high-stat character to occasionally have flashes where their raw ability gives them a capability the less talented character could not achieve.
 

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One possible solution is that a character untrained in a skill is automatically disadvantaged for the roll, which having the skill training then negates (and can be further advantaged by circumstance.) It reinforces the utility of skill training while allowing the high-stat character to occasionally have flashes where their raw ability gives them a capability the less talented character could not achieve.

They've only given player characters about four skills in previous packets, and they've given no indication that they intend to be any more generous. So if players had disadvantage on checks that they weren't skilled in, this would mean that players would suffer automatic disadvantage on the vast majority of checks.
 

This part puzzles me. So if you have a skill, you get your proficiency bonus to those checks. If you have proficiency in something, like blacksmith tools, you likewise get your proficiency bonus to those checks. So... why have proficiency as something that's different than a skill?
I'm no expert (to say the least), but I think you get the proficiency bonus for using the equipment if you are proficient. You get the skill bonus just when doing the action, since there is no equipment involved. "Equipment" might mean lockpicks, a weapon, a magical device, an alchemy laboratory, a horse, a riding dragon, a rope or any number of other things. The idea to reduce armour's default AC bonus and add armour proficiency to AC, above, seems pretty good to me, too.
 

No offense, but I think that's a bad idea. If skills granted advantage, then skilled players would have no reason to try and get circumstances in their favor since advantage doesn't stack.

I agree, going that route would make advantage structural to a lot of checks. I'd rather want advantage to be occasional, not frequent, thus limit the amount of constant (i.e. not situational) sources of advantage, which we already have quite a few...

Have proficiency bonus dictate your AC if you're in armor, while the armor itself will grant additional benefits, but not AC bonus.

Not sure, it would be quite a huge departure from one of the traditional elements of D&D. Let's see what they come up with.

This part puzzles me. So if you have a skill, you get your proficiency bonus to those checks. If you have proficiency in something, like blacksmith tools, you likewise get your proficiency bonus to those checks. So... why have proficiency as something that's different than a skill? What is the functional difference between being trained in blacksmithing as a skill and being proficient with blacksmith tools? In either case, you're getting a +2 to +6 with checks related to that craft. Am I missing something, or is there really no difference? It seems to me like they just don't want certain things to be skills for some reason, like crafting and opening locks. But why?

One thing I think they should do is have two different kind of skills. General skills would be the kind of things that are extremely useful for adventuring, like perception, acrobatics, and so on. Background skills would cover things like professions, crafts, performance and lore. By separating background skills from other skills, it lets you have a virtually limitless set of flavor skills that can be easily expanded upon without breaking the game. Also, background skills could be acquired in different ways than general skills are, since they don't have much effect on game balance the way general skills do. And let's face it, things like crafts and specific lore skills were never the equal of things like perception. It's silly to make players pay as much for something like folklore as they do for stealth.

I share the puzzling... in many ways, proficiencies and skills can be the same.

But I disagree on the latter part. I really wouldn't want to silo backgrounds skills vs adventuring skills. Some players are simply not interested in background skills. I am, on the other hand, sometimes interested depending on the character concept, and when I take a background skill I want that to matter; however, this doesn't necessarily mean they have to matter during adventuring, they might matter between adventuring or to prepare for adventuring. Maybe a skill in blacksmithing can be useful to strengthen the durability of your equipment, while a skill in alchemy or herbalism can be used between adventuring to create items that you then use during adventuring.

Rather than being worried on skill X being less useful than skill Y (which is inevitable to some extent, no matter how you silo them), I want freedom in choosing whether my PC leans towards quickly-usable skills such as Athletics or background skills such as professions.

I totally hate siloing, it forces every PC of mine to comply to whatever arrangement the designers have settle with. Instead, if they put all tools proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, skills and languages together and let the player choose, then character design is really more free.

And then just work on making each of them useful enough during the game: obviously, in a fast-paced game with the PCs permanently on hostile ground, profession skills and languages aren't going to have significant use, but let the DM handle that. If I'm running a game like that, it's up to me to inform the players not to pick professions because they aren't worth it.

To me, the issue is do we want to model expertise as offering greater consistency, greater capability, or both. There's also the issue of setting up DC tables that capture the differing scales of both skill checks and attribute checks.

One possible solution is that a character untrained in a skill is automatically disadvantaged for the roll, which having the skill training then negates (and can be further advantaged by circumstance.) It reinforces the utility of skill training while allowing the high-stat character to occasionally have flashes where their raw ability gives them a capability the less talented character could not achieve.

Yeah, it is an issue, and not easy to solve... Disadvantage for not being proficient however is IMHO much better than advantage for being proficient, it serves as a warning "don't use this on a regular basis" but still lets you try.

Both capability and consistency would be good, advantage alone (besides being too common if used for proficiency) does not add capability. Flat bonus adds both, but the effect on consistency is small. I am not sure I want to have a Take10 rule for consistency, it was quite ok in 3e but led to frequent controversies.

Once again, the problem is that using the d20 on skills is too swingy because the range between 1 and 20 is too large. The d20 is OK for everything else, but maybe not skills.
 

I was pretty happy with the list until I saw that
a. Seamanship, and Find and Remove Traps, Open Locks won't be skills

Well, they kind of will be. Apparently they're being moved to tool proficiency. So proficiency with thieves tools gets you remove traps and open locks, for example.

b. Culture Lore (specific), Dragon Lore, Fey Lore, Forbidden Lore, Profession Lore, Streetwise and Undead Lore will also not be individual skills.

Those are pretty specific, and I think they will be covered by broader tool proficiencies and backgrounds But maybe not, too early to tell.

c. Bonus is based on your total level. (I'll tolerate level based attack bonuses and 4e unified defense progression bonus). I will not tolerate it for skills. That their was no mention of a skill points module or the module from an earlier packet where you had a die that increased with level, but you could choose a new skill instead does not feel me with hope.

Well, the bonus is linked to level, but it does not increase every level, and is roughly comparable to an increasing die roll. It's possible you can still choose a new skill at those levels, it's unclear what options will be available as they're just trying to outline the basic default assumptions.

I know you're disheartened but I think there is still plenty of room for hope that the end system will be good enough for your preferences.
 

also, +5 seems reasonable for an expert. And even +11 seems reasonable too. At level 20, you should be better at things you are proficient than someone unproficient at level 0...

+5 is just a 25% bonus. That is the least for being an expert.
 

Essentially a level 1 elf wizard with the sailor background is:'
  • Proficiency in Arcana +2
  • Proficiency in Acrobatics +2
  • Proficiency in Nature +2
  • Proficiency in Perception +2
  • Proficiency with waterborne vehicles +2
  • Proficiency in daggers +2
  • Proficiency in darts +2
  • Proficiency in longbow +2
  • Proficiency in longswords +2
  • Proficiency in quarterstaffs +2
  • Proficiency in shortbows +2
  • Proficiency in shortbows +2
  • Proficiency in slings +2
  • Proficiency in light crossbow +2

Great summary, thank you for writing that out.

It is to prevent superskills.

With no Acrobatics, Athletics would catch every exploration action outside of traps.
Without Search, Perception would catch too many checks.
Same with Persuasion.

Otherwise, some rogue could get Athletic, Perception, Stealth, and Persuasion, beat everything, and use the rest of the party as bodyguards and cadddies.

Well, in the related thread where I was hoping for an optional module in a supplementary book where the rogue could swap out sneak attack for a more non-combat themed ability, that's the sort of thing I was hoping for. That the rogue could become the superb skills-focused player, with weaker combat abilities, if they player opts to do that.
 

They've only given player characters about four skills in previous packets, and they've given no indication that they intend to be any more generous. So if players had disadvantage on checks that they weren't skilled in, this would mean that players would suffer automatic disadvantage on the vast majority of checks.
Yep. And factoring in the basic psychology that people dislike penalties far more than they enjoy bonuses, it just might encourage more engagement with the fiction to look for circumstances that grant advantage to offset their penalty. That seems like a win to me.
 

also, +5 seems reasonable for an expert. And even +11 seems reasonable too. At level 20, you should be better at things you are proficient than someone unproficient at level 0... +5 is just a 25% bonus. That is the least for being an expert.
It isn't +11, it will be +16 from the character having a 20 in an ability score which isn't reasonable. You should be better at higher level, but not unstoppable. Unless a character is skilled in Perception and has a 20 Wisdom, the chances for him to detect a level 20 character with Expertise in Stealth is very low.
 
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But I disagree on the latter part. I really wouldn't want to silo backgrounds skills vs adventuring skills. Some players are simply not interested in background skills. I am, on the other hand, sometimes interested depending on the character concept, and when I take a background skill I want that to matter; however, this doesn't necessarily mean they have to matter during adventuring, they might matter between adventuring or to prepare for adventuring. Maybe a skill in blacksmithing can be useful to strengthen the durability of your equipment, while a skill in alchemy or herbalism can be used between adventuring to create items that you then use during adventuring.

Rather than being worried on skill X being less useful than skill Y (which is inevitable to some extent, no matter how you silo them), I want freedom in choosing whether my PC leans towards quickly-usable skills such as Athletics or background skills such as professions.

I totally hate siloing, it forces every PC of mine to comply to whatever arrangement the designers have settle with. Instead, if they put all tools proficiencies, weapon proficiencies, skills and languages together and let the player choose, then character design is really more free.

And then just work on making each of them useful enough during the game: obviously, in a fast-paced game with the PCs permanently on hostile ground, profession skills and languages aren't going to have significant use, but let the DM handle that. If I'm running a game like that, it's up to me to inform the players not to pick professions because they aren't worth it.

You're right. It was a bad idea.
 

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