Lame Prestige Classes

[Insight]

You know, there's only one thing wrong with the assassin PrC. One.

That's the name.

Seriously. Change the name "assassin" to something else, make the PrC representatives of some dark secret society of mystically-oriented killers, and it's just fine.

Don't get too hung up on terminology.

[shameless plug]In my book, Prestige Secrets: Assassins (see sig) [/shameless plug], I have created a non spellcasting version of the Assassin, as well as a few variants that make the prestige class more interesting and useful in a variety of campaigns, especially those with low-frequency magic.

 

[JoeGKushner]

yeah... play gurps... no classes to stuff you around

BESM, Hero, etc...

 

[lukelightning]

...I think all PrC's have jumped the shark.

Especially the Shark Jumper PrC! Now that is the lamest PrC of all, if only because they tend to have leg damage from failed attempts.

 

[wingsandsword]

What really cracks me up about this is that the whole rationale for doing away with the Assassin class in 2nd Edition was for the very same reason you cite- TSR said that "assassin is a profession, not a class"

Yet they kept the class called "Thief", which is also a profession.

Just shows how hollow the reasoning was, they were getting rid of anything "objectionable", so out went Assassin, out went Demons and Devils, out went a lot of spells from the PHB (like Cacodemon), in came "Generic Clerics".

Simply put, "Assassin", as in a character class that is optimized towards being a silent and stealthy killer over other aspects of being a thief/rogue, is part of the D&D tradition.

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

I have a non-spellcasting assassin PrC I found on the net a year or so ago. I don't know who created it, but it seems a viable alternative for those who don't want a spell-shootin' killer. I take no credit for this PrC, in case the creator is reading this post.

 

[Strithe]

Prestige classes

In my opinion, all perstige classes are kind of lame.

As modular as 3.5e is, I always figured most of what is trying to be achieved by a prestige class could be done just as well with a series of feats and/or multiclassing then another type of class. To me the whole Prestige Class mechanic was invented to both satisfy power-gamers and sell more books.

I've never used a PrC as a player because I've done everything I could want with core class combinations. The only concept you can't do with core D&D classes is a divine spellcaster that isn't a master of whupass. I find it odd that in most published settings a cleric of a deity of a non-martial deity would still be trained in the use of armor and have a favored weapon. "The Goddess of Eternal Peace, Love, and Fluffy Pillows preaches that if an enemy strikes you, turn the other cheek. Unless he's Chaotic Evil, in that case, KILL THE BASTARD!" But I digress.

Want to make an Assasin like the PrC? Make a Rogue with a couple of levels of Sorceror for the spells, maybe some levels in Fighter if you want to use more weapons or fight a little better. Poison use and Death attack can be add-on feats with appropriate prerequisites.

As a DM, I don't allow PrC's in general (then again, I perfer to DM Grim Tales or True 20, so it doesn't come up that often anyway). In part this is out of laziness: I don't want to keep up with even MORE classes. Plus I just don't like the idea that every single thing about a character HAS to have a statistical benefit.

For instance, if you join an elite order of a priesthood, I'd much rather roleplay it and have other in-game benefits. The character has powerful connections and access to the order's resources, plus bearing the sign of the order makes the character more credible to people in the kingdom. The flashy new robes are a plus as well...

For an assasin's guild, I'd have the player first try and find the guild (which may be an adventure in itself, especially if the character isn't too subltle about wanting to join a band of killers-for-hire). The guild would grant benefits like regular "work," as well as protection from the local authorities for sanctioned assasinations. The down-side would be having to swear absolute loyalty to the guild and having only one way to retire...

To me that's more interesting than another table of bonuses and some new class ability that basically transaltes to some new "kewl way to kill monzterz" that mechanically isn't much different than all the other ways to inflict mayhem already in the standard rules.

 

[Anti-Sean]

Especially the Shark Jumper PrC! Now that is the lamest PrC of all, if only because they tend to have leg damage from failed attempts.

Genius! This must be created!

That sounds *way* better than the Caltrop Master PrC I created as an in-group joke from the last campaign I was in. (Our greatsword wielding half-orc barbarian, had an unhealthy obsession with caltrops. He'd spend several rounds of each combat spreading caltrops, lighting smokesticks, and such, and he was our main melee powerhouse. *sigh*)

 

[Psion]

As modular as 3.5e is, I always figured most of what is trying to be achieved by a prestige class could be done just as well with a series of feats and/or multiclassing then another type of class.

The thing is, this really isn't the case.

Classes in d20 based games can be, to some extent, one (or some) of two things: logically associated skill sets or archetypes.

D&D leans a bit more strongly to the archtype end of the spectrum as d20 games go. Some classes are defined in rather narrow strokes, and the existing classes and associated feats simply ARE NOT enough to replicate the specialized abilities that many prestige classes get.

I've never used a PrC as a player because I've done everything I could want with core class combinations.

Don't assume this holds true for all players. Some may want capabilities that no core class has.

And some may just not find mixing and matching to craft the concept they want or are actively looking for an interesting concept more specific that a base class with implementation provided. Advanced/Prestige classes provide this.

The only concept you can't do with core D&D classes is a divine spellcaster that isn't a master of whupass. I find it odd that in most published settings a cleric of a deity of a non-martial deity would still be trained in the use of armor and have a favored weapon. "The Goddess of Eternal Peace, Love, and Fluffy Pillows preaches that if an enemy strikes you, turn the other cheek. Unless he's Chaotic Evil, in that case, KILL THE BASTARD!" But I digress.

Indeed you do. But I agree -- the cleric is entirely too narrowly defined for a core class. But this, to me, illustrates the way I feel is optimal to design classes: BROAD base/core classes, and more SPECIALIZED advanced/prestige classes.

As a DM, I don't allow PrC's in general

You do a disservice to your players if they don't share your paradigm of having a strong concept and crafting it to make a character.

(then again, I perfer to DM Grim Tales or True 20, so it doesn't come up that often anyway).

Those are systems that model classes more as skill clusters than archetypes, and they have more flexibility in their core classes than D&D. Those systems have much less need for advanced/prestige classes.

But OTOH, some players may not have the right "craftsman" mentality to make characters under these system and would suffer in absence of the "strong prepackaged kernel of a concept" that comes with prestige classes.

To me that's more interesting than another table of bonuses and some new class ability that basically transaltes to some new "kewl way to kill monzterz"

You know, slapping mocking characterizations on things you don't like really isn't making a rational case against them.

 

[vrock]

In my opinion, all perstige classes are kind of lame.

As modular as 3.5e is, I always figured most of what is trying to be achieved by a prestige class could be done just as well with a series of feats and/or multiclassing then another type of class. To me the whole Prestige Class mechanic was invented to both satisfy power-gamers and sell more books.

I've never used a PrC as a player because I've done everything I could want with core class combinations. The only concept you can't do with core D&D classes is a divine spellcaster that isn't a master of whupass. I find it odd that in most published settings a cleric of a deity of a non-martial deity would still be trained in the use of armor and have a favored weapon. "The Goddess of Eternal Peace, Love, and Fluffy Pillows preaches that if an enemy strikes you, turn the other cheek. Unless he's Chaotic Evil, in that case, KILL THE BASTARD!" But I digress.

Want to make an Assasin like the PrC? Make a Rogue with a couple of levels of Sorceror for the spells, maybe some levels in Fighter if you want to use more weapons or fight a little better. Poison use and Death attack can be add-on feats with appropriate prerequisites.

As a DM, I don't allow PrC's in general (then again, I perfer to DM Grim Tales or True 20, so it doesn't come up that often anyway). In part this is out of laziness: I don't want to keep up with even MORE classes. Plus I just don't like the idea that every single thing about a character HAS to have a statistical benefit.

For instance, if you join an elite order of a priesthood, I'd much rather roleplay it and have other in-game benefits. The character has powerful connections and access to the order's resources, plus bearing the sign of the order makes the character more credible to people in the kingdom. The flashy new robes are a plus as well...

For an assasin's guild, I'd have the player first try and find the guild (which may be an adventure in itself, especially if the character isn't too subltle about wanting to join a band of killers-for-hire). The guild would grant benefits like regular "work," as well as protection from the local authorities for sanctioned assasinations. The down-side would be having to swear absolute loyalty to the guild and having only one way to retire...

To me that's more interesting than another table of bonuses and some new class ability that basically transaltes to some new "kewl way to kill monzterz" that mechanically isn't much different than all the other ways to inflict mayhem already in the standard rules.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but I would have to agree with you. I would like to see an even more modular d20 system where things were essentially classless, and skills such as spellcasting, poison use, and sneak attack were feats that could be applied to any character. Obviously a system like that couldn't take into account all of the possible feats, but it would be nice to have a mechanic to build a character in that fashion.

The PrC's in the DMG and most other base-D&D products are painted with too broad of strokes for most campaigns. I do however like some of the setting specific PrC's, and there are others that I think are just thrown in for NPC purposes since they would be utterly boring to play as a character. Otherwise most of the PrCs in the DMG feel to me like they cater to players who either get bored with playing a specific core character class, or for players looking to power-up with extra abilities, or with things that can't be done with a normal character class. I say, why not give them the options and cut the fat (PrC's)?

 

[Drew]

It might be interesting to note that the original "Assassins" were members of a specific group of religious zealots during the crusades. The more generic term assassin later came to be applied to people who are hired to kill others (generally leaders or political figures). The original assassins were very much a real world equivelant of a prestige class.