Trailer Lanterns | Official Teaser | HBO Max

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think Captain America did well with the material that it had - It wasnt a great movie, but it was good enough especially as the movie had to deal with the fact that the original Captain America was at his core a Pro America Propaganda piece, and a Boy Scout that needed to be introduced to a cynical audience.

Captain America hasn't been that guy since Marvel brought him back in the 1960s. He literally went after Nixon who, in Marvel Comics, killed himself when confronted by Cap.

 

[Ryujin]

Captain America hasn't been that guy since Marvel brought him back in the 1960s. He literally went after Nixon who, in Marvel Comics, killed himself when confronted by Cap.

There was that stint in which Cap got so disillusioned with the state of the US that he (temporarily) renounced the name Captain America and became Nomad. After that he's been about the ideal to which the country aspires, rather than slavish patriotism.

 

[chuckdee]

Err, sibling rivalry! I know plenty of siblings for whom that is a major motivation. And he isn’t wrong, Thor is too dumb to be king of anything.

And Daddy issues. Never forget the Daddy issues.

 

[chuckdee]

I'd kind of disagree with both, but that's probably not surprising.

• There are definitely clues that Thor is worried about taking the throne, and is trying on leadership (outside his little gang) for size but knows he doesn't measure up.
• Loki definitely isn't aiming to have Thor exiled, but he does see that Thor is bored and floundering and prods him to get himself into trouble so that he won't be bored. Also, Loki is kind of bored. He's mostly a clever advisor but he's no more responsible than Thor in some ways, and he genuinely had no idea how much trouble this would all cause. Honestly, this is pretty close to mythic Loki, who's only the god of mischief because he's more clever than everyone else but is sadly no more foresighted or wise than anyone else.
• But Loki does also blame himself for getting Thor exiled - it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't prodded him, and the look of fear on his face when Odin goes to town on his brother is quite something to behold - and that all feeds into his self-hatred, his turn from "it's all my fault" to "then I'll be the bad guy."

I think the fact that you can have multiple takes - and all of them some basis in what you see and what they communicate - is why I think Thor is more nuanced than most give it credit for, to its bane and boon.

 

[Tonguez]

Captain America hasn't been that guy since Marvel brought him back in the 1960s. He literally went after Nixon who, in Marvel Comics, killed himself when confronted by Cap.

yeah, thats the point. The first Captain America movie was introducing WW2 era Captain America to a new movie watching audience and leant in to what he meant to the original WW2 story ie the USO Propaganda vignettes. Its Winter Soldier where we see the updated Captain America v corrupt government and no doubt they were using Secret Empire as part of the motivation. Afterall its not by accident that they got Robert Redford to play the villain in a 1970's style spy thriller

 

[MarkB]

yeah, thats the point. The first Captain America movie was introducing WW2 era Captain America to a new movie watching audience and leant in to what he meant to the original WW2 story ie the USO Propaganda vignettes. Its Winter Soldier where we see the updated Captain America v corrupt government and no doubt they were using Secret Empire as part of the motivation. Afterall its not by accident that they got Robert Redford to play the villain in a 1970's style spy thriller

And you don't really get to Winter Soldier without going through First Avenger. So much of Winter Soldier is built upon that foundation.

 

[payn]

Getting back to the trailer, I'm not expecting anything good. Last "New" shows I enjoyed were Burn Notice and Person of Interest. Mandalorian started off well, then suffered from higher management interference.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

No, I think Thor had a pretty solid arc. He’s initially the golden boy, leader of the gang, heir to the throne, who both feels the weight of future responsibility and chafes at what he sees as his father’s age and weakness. That comes out very clearly in the confrontation that leads to his banishment.

“You are a vain, greedy, cruel boy!”

“And you are an old man and a fool!”

“Yes, I was a fool… to think you were ready. Thor Odinson, you have betrayed the express command of your king. You are unworthy of these realms, unworthy of your title, unworthy of the loved ones you have betrayed! I now take from you your power! In the name of my father and his father before him, I CAST YOU OUT!”

(This scene, when Odin literally strips Thor of his armour and cloak, mirroring the disgracing of Alfred Dreyfus, is killer.)

And Thor is abandoned, petulant, entitled; still a vain child who hasn’t processed what’s happened.

And then he cannot lift his hammer; his power rejects him and deems him unworthy. It would all have been OK if Mjolnir had accepted him for who he was.

And THEN Loki - his brother and confidant, whom he trusts implicitly - comes to him and does the Iago bit. Dad is dead, Loki is reluctantly king now; he’s sorry, but there can be no official forgiveness, even their mother won’t see Thor.

Only then does Thor, completely broken by his own failures (as he sees them), understand that it’s up to him to define himself, get up, and make the best of the rest of his possibly endless life. He takes it one day at a time. He starts to care about those around him and his new home. He starts to become worthy.

And I agree this part could have used more development, but sadly we didn’t have time. The final step to worthiness is when he takes on the Destroyer with nothing but mortal strength and skill, willing to sacrifice himself to protect even one other person. And then Mjolnir flies to his hand, like it’s been waiting all along.

I think it’s a great arc and one that shows up in every version of Thor since. Even in Endgame, when he’s broken again, he’s striving for worthiness, to do something good.

Equally, Loki has a good arc. He’s the younger less charismatic son - he gets it, he’s used to being the clever one who gets Thor out of trouble and making things work, he’s looking forward to being his vizier forever. But then Thor is exiled and he’s the heir, he’s not prepared, and then he discovers that he’s not Asgardian, he’s an enemy child adopted as a potential diplomatic resource for conquest. And he snaps - he hates himself, hates his Jotun lineage, decides to genocide the Jotun to eliminate everything he hates and take the throne (which is already within reach) by force and guile because that’s what a Jotun would do. He’s lashing out, no sense of self, all his wits doing nothing to help him process what’s happened.

It takes him ages to process this and he pretends to be a villain because that helps (and of course Thanos tortures him and will kill him if he doesn’t conquer Earth). And he is a villain - he kills and maims and threatens, he’s responsible for many deaths and disasters - but when Ragnarok comes he finally pulls it together and reaches some semblance of being happy with who he is. And then Thanos kills him.

Ya know, this is a great read on the movie. I now want to go back and give it a re-watch.