Legolas trick (Discussion from General)

[Darklone]

Originally Posted by +5 Keyboard!
Sorry, Darklone, you don't get to draw weapons and make attacks on AOO's. This is what your quoting from the PHB weapon section on ranged weapons, right?

Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

What this means is that the normal rule for having to use a move action to draw a stored item, does not apply when using a bow to attack on your turn. The archer combines the draw and fire movement is all.

This is why you don't ever hear of archers suddenly yanking arrows out of quivers and stabbing everyone that provokes an AOO around them.

Legolas ?

The trick is to draw the arrow as a free action not during the AoO but before

The character is using a bow... so he can draw ammunition as a free action, you quoted it. Nothing keeps you from doing that after your full attack action. Looking at a normal archer, you now have a character with a bow in one hand and the arrow in another hand. What keeps him from making an AoO with the arrow ? Certainly not the rules as written, just your interpretation.

Edit: Ok, here we go from this thread!

 

[Darklone]

Ok, to make it clear. What I say is that an archer during his turn pulls out an arrow for his next shot next round... and uses that arrow as improvised weapon in a Legolas way to make AoOs against Disarm/Grapple/whatever attempts.

I've gotten a lot of fire against this tactic (which is actually pretty common and often used on German boards).

Since we're in danger to threadjack the thread in General, it was proposed to discuss the topic here.

First: Is this by the rules? Some disagree.
To me: The char uses a bow, therefore he can draw ammunition as free action. If he does so on the end of his turn, he's holding a bow in one hand and the arrow in the other hand. Why shouldn't he use the arrow for AoOs?

Personally, I never really used this tactic, mostly because it was common knowledge and everyone only attempted Disarms/Grapples/Sunders with the respective feat.

 

[Darklone]

To me, the cheese factor is comparable to:
- using a polearm with armor spikes or IUS for the close range
- using a THweapon with armor spikes to TWF
- using Imp Buckler Defense
- do the same stunt as above with IUS

All stuff allowed ... but many DMs (like me) refrain from allowing it.

 

[Demoquin]

i think you have to be proficient in the weapon you are wielding to make AoO's. And i believe an arrow would be an improvised weapon. Hence why you need imp unarm strike for making AoO's with your body.

 

[Darklone]

i think you have to be proficient in the weapon you are wielding to make AoO's. And i believe an arrow would be an improvised weapon. Hence why you need imp unarm strike for making AoO's with your body.

I didn't find anything indicating that you need proficiency with the weapon.

 

[Sithobi1]

You need IUS to make AoOs with an Unarmed Attack(no weapon wielded) because you don't threaten with an unarmed attack.
The 'tactic' seems fine to me, nowhere near overpowered, since you're not that likely to hit anyway...but the triple posting was unwarranted

 

[Darklone]

You need IUS to make AoOs with an Unarmed Attack(no weapon wielded) because you don't threaten with an unarmed attack.

Certainly. The advantage of the arrow trick: No feat cost. Disadvantage: Harder to hit.

The 'tactic' seems fine to me, nowhere near overpowered, since you're not that likely to hit anyway...but the triple posting was unwarranted

Sorry, tried to summarize some of the things in the Generals thread without copy/paste everything... wasn't going for post count.

 

[Krafen]

Hmm, I had always thought the free drawing of ammunition was free because it was considered to be part of the attack, but the rules don't quite say that.

You would be better off using spiked gauntlets, though. They do the same damage, but you avoid the nonproficiency penalty. Also, they leave your hand free for other things. Not that dropping the arrow would be a big deal.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm, I had always thought the free drawing of ammunition was free because it was considered to be part of the attack, but the rules don't quite say that.

You would be better off using spiked gauntlets, though. They do the same damage, but you avoid the nonproficiency penalty. Also, they leave your hand free for other things. Not that dropping the arrow would be a big deal.

Well. Some DMs in General said about the arrow trick that you couldn't use it because you're not holding the arrow... you're using it. That's not too obvious to me.

Some might say that you can't bash someone with your gauntlet because you're holding the bow with the same reasoning.

YMMV.

Yes, by the rules, you're right. I think both are valid possibilities.

Edit: In a former discussion about the polearm/spiked gauntlet combo, someone proposed to consider TWF fighting penalties for these styles. E.g. If you don't take TWF penalties on your normal attacks then you can't use the 2nd weapon for AoOs. IIRC this was not supported by custserv or FAQ or the local rulesgurus.

 

[Aries_Omega]

Fuel to the fire

After reading this thread I tend to agree you can "pull a Legolas" in regards to using an arrow in melee then fire as a full round action. RAW says this on arrows as melee weapons however.

An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Hence -4 to hit with it. I am not aware of a feat that lets you use improvised weapons. Perhaps treat it as separate Exotic Weapon Proficiency? Then again it is a "light weapon" so you can use Weapon Finesse I think...even if not proficient with it. Cheesy...yes. Bad meat smelling cheese...ehhh.....I don't think so.

Here is my question. Can you use Weapon Finesse with a weapon you are not proficient with such as an arrow in this case, or heck can you finesse something more common that people are not proficient with such as a spiked chain?