Legolas trick (Discussion from General)

[KarinsDad]

Nah, feats are too expensive, I want cheese without having to pay!

An arrow used for a melee attack is not an arrow used as ammunition.

Sorry, the rules do not support what you want to do.

Arrows An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Ammunition Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;

You'll note that ammunition pull is only a free action for a bow, not a bolt or a sling.

Sorry DL. This is a rules forum. Not many people will be supporting a free action pull out an arrow after all your bow shots are all done (without Quickdraw) as RAW here, but they might tell you that it is balanced to do so.


One "more in line with the rules" way to do this is to take x-1 shots with your bow on your full round attack and instead of attacking with the last shot, pull out the arrow but do not fire it. Then, it is in your hand and you can use it as an improvised weapon for AoOs. However, if you hit with it, you still will not get multiple successful AoOs as per Legolas (iirc, he sometimes pulled it out of the chest of one Orc and reused it).

 

[Darklone]

Guess he used Cleave

Karinsdad: I really respect your rules-fu. But an arrow in your hand is an arrow in your hand. Whether you use it as ammunition or as a melee weapon is not selected when you draw it but when you use it

I'm not convinced.

 

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad: I really respect your rules-fu. But an arrow in your hand is an arrow in your hand.

That is not the issue. If the arrow is in hand, you can according to RAW use it as an improvised weapon on an AoO. Nobody is disagreeing with you on this.

Whether you use it as ammunition or as a melee weapon is not selected when you draw it but when you use it

If you draw it as Ammunition (using the rules in the Ammunition section for a bow), it is a free action. This free action can only be done when the arrow is used with a bow as ammunition. RAW states this.

Otherwise, drawing an arrow to use as a weapon (or retrieving an arrow as a stored item) is a move action (or part of normal movement with a BAB of +1) unless one has the Quickdraw feat.


So yes, an archer can fire an arrow as a Standard action, then use a Move Action (or part of a Movement Move Action) draw another arrow and his round is over. Later on before his next round, he can AoO with the arrow at -4 as an improvised weapon. He can even use Combat Reflexes to do multiple AoOs with the arrow as long as he does not hit with it. Once he hits with it, the arrow is destroyed.


But, one cannot just ignore the fact that drawing an arrow is in the Ammunition section of the rules and it says that it is a free action when using a bow and consider it RAW that he can do it when not using a bow.


If you are concerned with the "plausibility" of pulling it out with a bow as taking no time, but pulling it out for melee use should still take no time, consider that when pulled out for a bow, the feathers are held. When used as a weapon, the middle of the shaft is held. It takes more time (with one hand, the other is holding the bow) to move the hand from the feathers down the shaft of the arrow (possibly by either throwing it in the air and catching it, or by pushing it against a belt and sliding the hand down).

So, both plausibilty and RAW indicate this cannot be done quickly (i.e. as a free action).


On the other hand, you do not appear to care what RAW states. You just want free unpaid for cheese. Your personal entitlement rules over RAW, right?

 

[SolosAddie]

^^that sounds right

 

[Darklone]

On the other hand, you do not appear to care what RAW states. You just want free unpaid for cheese. Your personal entitlement rules over RAW, right?

Nah

I'm a traditional archer:
Put the arrows into them before they close to melee - if they do: use bigger weapons

This has never come up in my groups, neither as player nor DM cause our archers have swords. Or axes. Or both. It's just a tactic I've seen at German boards.

And now you nearly convinced me that it's not by the rules To be honest: I do think you're right.

I just don't think it's cheesier than the good old free action two handed weapon grip change to cast spells or do other stuff.

Just a sidenote (not meant to counter your rules-fu): fencing with arrows used to be a sport in Europe... and the arrows were held by the feathers like a rapier (not the D&D rapiers).

 

[KarinsDad]

I just don't think it's cheesier than the good old free action two handed weapon grip change to cast spells or do other stuff.

You mean like Gandalf using a Quarterstaff and being able to cast spells?

That's fairly traditional fantasy, all the way back to DND 1E.

I don't think cheesy is the word I would use for it.

 

[Darklone]

Nah, I rather mean casting spells all the time (which he didn't) and making AoOs in the meantime with the greatsword

Okok. This is not as cheesy now with your example. But please allow me to use the word in connection with polearm wielders with spiked gauntlets?

 

[KarinsDad]

Okok. This is not as cheesy now with your example. But please allow me to use the word in connection with polearm wielders with spiked gauntlets?

Have at it!

 

[Nail]

I'm not convinced KD has nailed it.

#1) Can't you perform a free action at any time during the Full-Round attack (Bow)?

If so, what's to prevent you from using a free action at the end of your full round action (but before the action is finished)?

#2) On another line of attack: Couldn't the archer draw an arrow during a full-round attack, drop it, then draw another and make his second (or third, etc) attack? You can see where the rest of this arguement goes....

 

[Darklone]

I'm not convinced KD has nailed it.

#1) Can't you perform a free action at any time during the Full-Round attack (Bow)?
If so, what's to prevent you from using a free action at the end of your full round action (but before the action is finished)?

Nothing. But drawing the arrow not for shooting is by RAW only a free action if you have Quickdraw. Well. But you might argue to draw the arrow as ammunition (free action) and change grip on it (like the greatsword casting dudes do) as a free action to use it as an impro weapon ...
Guys, this is getting sick

#2) On another line of attack: Couldn't the archer draw an arrow during a full-round attack, drop it, then draw another and make his second (or third, etc) attack? You can see where the rest of this arguement goes....

I simply see an archer standing on a huge heap or arrows