Legolas trick (Discussion from General)

[RigaMortus2]

I'm not convinced KD has nailed it.

#1) Can't you perform a free action at any time during the Full-Round attack (Bow)?

Sure.

If so, what's to prevent you from using a free action at the end of your full round action (but before the action is finished)?

Nothing. Except if you are using that free action to draw an arrow because you are "using your bow", you can't, because you have no more attacks left and are no longer able to "use your bow". This assumes that "use you bow" means to attack with it via arrows

#2) On another line of attack: Couldn't the archer draw an arrow during a full-round attack, drop it, then draw another and make his second (or third, etc) attack? You can see where the rest of this arguement goes....

I see the free arrow draw as part of the same action as firing the bow. You can't have one and not the other. That is simply my personal interpretation though.

 

[Nail]

The strange issue to me is "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action;...".

It's fun to toy with that statement!

Imagine this: During a full-round action, the archer pulls out a size-small sling bullet. "Huh?," he says, as he uses a free action to drop it. Next he pulls out a size small crossbow bolt; "What's this?!" he says, and drops that too. Then he reaches in and pulls out a dead chicken; it's the ammunition for the group's halfling rogue's "Hand-Trebuchet of Fun". The archer swears and yells (free action) to the party, "Who switched my quiver with that blasted halfling?!!....".

 

[mvincent]

Not many people will be supporting a free action pull out an arrow after all your bow shots are all done (without Quickdraw) as RAW here

I support that.

Interpreting the lines:
"When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action"
and
"Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action"
... to specifically imply that it's only a free action if the ammunition is going to be immediately used in the ranged weapon is a possible interpretation, but such a requirement is not specifically stated, nor does it seem that the writer expects this to be inferred.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Mr Vincent, is this despite the ruling in which you must 'ready' a quarterstaff using either a move action or Quickdraw?

The Quarterstaff is already 'held', its just not being 'weilded' as a weapon. So too with the Arrow. You can free action draw an arrow to nock in the bow...then in order to 'weild' it as an improvised weapon you need to shift your grip on it, spending either a Move action or via Quickdraw.

This debates revolves around the distinction between the states of 'held' and 'weilded'.

Darklone, you asked about using the Bow as an improvised weapon... but basically its the same gambit. You still need to 'ready' the improvised weapon, whether it be the bow or an arrow.

 

[mvincent]

Mr Vincent, is this despite the ruling in which you must 'ready' a quarterstaff using either a move action or Quickdraw?

Can you provide this ruling? I have seen no such ruling (either in this thread or in all of my rules research).

This debates revolves around the distinction between the states of 'held' and 'weilded'.

Hm. I get the impression that most of the D&D writers don't usually make a distinction between the two.

Example, aligned weapons (that bestow a negative level to opposite aligned wielders) say:
"The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded.

A flaming weapon says:
"The fire does not harm the wielder" (and it would probably be bad if you ruled that harmed you if you were merely holding it). Same with the other energy and burst weapons.

In fact, I believe even ammunition may be considered "wielded" even after being fired, as the Screaming Bolt description says "One of these +2 bolts screams when fired, forcing all enemies of the wielder within 20 feet of the path of the bolt to succeed on a DC 14 Will save or become shaken"

Also, shields and bucklers are considered "wielded" even if you can't bash with them (or even if they are animated).

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not convinced KD has nailed it.

#1) Can't you perform a free action at any time during the Full-Round attack (Bow)?

If so, what's to prevent you from using a free action at the end of your full round action (but before the action is finished)?

#2) On another line of attack: Couldn't the archer draw an arrow during a full-round attack, drop it, then draw another and make his second (or third, etc) attack? You can see where the rest of this arguement goes....

The problem is that the quoted text specifies that the free action is "when using a bow" or "for use with a ranged weapon".

That sounds pretty specific. Once you are done using the bow for the round, that's it. No more ammunition free actions because you only get them with "use".

It does not state that it is a free action in any other case (per RAW).


How is this different from other free actions that only occur with the action itself? For example, an opposed Grapple check when an enemy grapples you.

Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

Just because it is a free action, you do not get to attempt to hold multiple times with the same melee attack.

You get one shot at it per grapple.


Or, casting a spell:

To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these materials are elaborate preparing these materials is a free action.

If an opponent disarms you of your material components while you are casting a spell, the spell is ruined (just like doing a Silence spell and removing the Verbal component). You do not get to use another free action to gain more material components.

 

[mvincent]

Just because it is a free action, you do not get to attempt to hold multiple times with the same melee attack.

You get one shot at it per grapple.

I believe (and most people would agree) that this is an expected inference. Rolls made in reaction to another's actions are even re-labeled as "non-actions" in the RotG. However, limiting the amount of arrows one can draw does not seem like an expected inference. Indeed, the terms "When using a bow" or "for use with a ranged weapon" cannot even be taken literally, as that would restrict the use of say, shuriken (something we know is not intended).

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Visualize it this way: drawing an arrow is part of an attack with a bow. For a single attack action:

[draw arrow-nock arrow-draw string-loose arrow]

For iterative attacks:

[draw arrow-nock arrow-draw string-loose arrow]+[draw arrow-nock arrow-draw string-loose arrow]+ etc.

So the archer is never just standing there with an arrow in hand ... and you get a consistent action. (Yeah, you can argue it the other way ... "I had an arrow nocked before combat" ... but then drawing the first arrow isn't part of the attack action, nor is drawing the subsequent arrow, because the attack is over.)

 

[KarinsDad]

I believe (and most people would agree) that this is an expected inference. Rolls made in reaction to another's actions are even re-labeled as "non-actions" in the RotG. However, limiting the amount of arrows one can draw does not seem like an expected inference. Indeed, the terms "When using a bow" or "for use with a ranged weapon" cannot even be taken literally, as that would restrict the use of say, shuriken (something we know is not intended).

So basically what you are saying is that you will take RAW literally when it suits you and will not do so when it disagrees with your POV.

That hardly seems consistent.


As for shuriken, they are explicitly considered ammunition for some purposes:

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

The point that you are missing about "when using a bow" is that bows are the only ammunition listed that is "drawn".

Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading.

Crossbows and sling require an action, hence, the word draw in the shuriken section can only be referring to being drawn like a bow in the ammunition section since shuriken's explicitly reference the ammunition section. Hence, your point on shuriken is totally irrelevant since the only way to read it is that they work like bows in that regard.


So yes, the "expected inference" (as you put it) of RAW is still that the free action of drawing ammunition for a bow or for a shuriken is a free action if used as part of a ranged attack, not as part of just drawing the weapon.

 

[mvincent]

the free action of drawing ammunition for a bow or for a shuriken is a free action if used as part of a ranged attack, not as part of just drawing the weapon.

Either you did not understand me, or I am not understanding you here. The rules do not say "as part of a ranged attack" (if they did, I would have agreed with you long ago).

The rules say "for use with a ranged weapon". You seem to have interpreted that as specifically "as part of a ranged attack" but I do not believe that was the writer's intent, nor do I think it can even be taken literally in regard to shuriken because they are not actually being used with a ranged weapon (they are being used as a ranged weapon).

So basically what you are saying is that you will take RAW literally when it suits you and will not do so when it disagrees with your POV.

That seems to be an unnecessary barb. I can point to numerous instances in the core rules that if taken literally would be incorrect (most or even all of which you would agree with me on). Identifying those is part of correctly interpreting the rules, and (given my explanation above), can you understand why it might be the case here?