D&D 5E Lets Talk about Medium Armor

The problem with anything like this is NO ONE will every take the Halfplate. If you could get the same AC but without disadvantage on Stealth, why wouldn't you? That's why I find the Max DEX +3 a more elegant and easier to implement solution. The armors are good enough IMO, what makes those High-DEX-Light-Armor builds slightly edge them out IS the DEX after all.

Hide doesn't count; like Padded and Ring, it is an inferior armor that is only used in edge cases (poor Druid).

Half-Plate would get an upgrade too.

And I don't want "everyone to be the same". Not all medium armor classes can "afford" the Dex 14. That's a hard sell for many clerics in my book. The point is to ensure that the growth of characters can be equal given optimal circumstances.

I'm okay with Medium equalling Light or Heavy because Medium has its advantages. Over Light, medium requires less investment in Dex. Over heavy, it requires less investment in Strength. It's great for those characters, but it falls behind for Barbarians and Rangers who are focusing on strength (though it is less of a problem for barbarians, once they start pumping Con they can often beat out the medium armors).

It's about everyone having a +2 AC growth in their progression while doing their normal stuff. Light armor wearers upgrade their Dex, medium and heavy upgrade their gear.
 

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I care because I don't want folks who come into ENWorld thinking that this is what D&D is supposed to be about... nitpicking over stupid little +1s here and there. There's a *reason* 5E made it a point to stop making the rules about ooh! Get a bonus +1 over here, get a +1 bonus over there, worrying about making sure you wring these gosh darned stones completely dry of every drop of blood you can find.

I would have though this would have been completely obvious. The 5E game is a direct result of the inanity of certain parts of both 3E AND 4E-- it got rid of searching for all these little bonuses or penalties that people did in 3E...
The changes made in 5E are a direct result of temporary modifiers getting out of hand, because they slowed down gameplay. They don't want you to spend time every round to add up all of your bonuses from spells and conditions and flanking and so on.

Nothing in 5E was designed to address permanent modifiers, because those don't take time to calculate at the table. Whether it's from a fighting style, a feat, a magic ring, or literal +1 armor; 5E has always embraced the D&D tradition of accumulating small bonuses for maximum effect.
 

I'm laughing at not valuing a +1 AC modifier when clearly the difference between Splint and Plate, or the existence of rings of protection kind of prove that people care about +1s.
 

I started a similar post a couple years ago, so I know (and agree) with where the OP is coming from.

After several pages of that thread (which is why I haven't read past the first page of this one--I'm assuming it continued in a similar manner) and discussion with a friend in my group who took the opposing position, I finally came to a conclusion:

The disagreement is philosophical rather than mechanical. There are different positions being presented over what the purpose and goals of medium armor should be in the game. Debating the means to achieve goals is fruitless when the goals are different.

In order to understand my (and I believe the OP's) point, and provide useful feedback, you have to understand and respect the validity of our philosophical position on armor categories. I'll explain it as best as I can.

1) All armor categories should function in the same way. It should not be true that Light and Heavy armor fill one design role in the game (such as providing the best options for dedicated combatants), while Medium armor fills a different one (such as providing a good option for other types of characters). The remaining points will explain what I mean by the different categories functioning the same way.

2) The heavier the armor category, the better the armor should be. Heavy armor should provide better protection than Medium armor, which should provide better protection than Light armor. If a class gives you Medium armor proficiency, while another class only gives you Light armor proficiency, that should be saying that class has better AC (all other things being equal).(Because Heavy armor's protection caps at 18 an Light armor caps 17, there are levels where either Light and Medium, or Medium and Heavy, will have equivalent protection--but Light shouldn't be better than Medium, or Medium than Heavy, except in cases of Stealth-focus, see #3b.)

3) This should be true of all characters who are focused combatants. Focused combatants are assumed to raise their primary attack stat (Strength or Dexterity) to 20, and not to invest in the other. (It doesn't matter whether you actually do that with the character or not--I don't always myself--but the design needs to make that assumption).

3b) This means that you should be most effective wearing the best armor category you are proficient in. If you are proficient in both Light and Medium armor, you should be best off wearing Medium armor. If you are proficient in all three categories, you should be best off wearing Heavy. The exception in both cases is that if you are interested in using Stealth, you should sometimes use a lower category of armor (ie, Light if you are proficent in Medium or Heavy but have great Dex, or Medium if you are proficent in Heavy but have decent Dex).

4) This should hold true across all levels of play. And this should especially be true with maxed stats, since characters will likely get there before high level, and then be that way for the rest of the game. If there is any virtue to the idea that you can ignore levels of play above 15 because most campaigns stop before then, this doesn't work here because you max out much sooner. It should not be true that Medium armor is a good option until everyone has maxed out stats, at which point it becomes obsolete for focused combatants.

5) Medium armor should not require an extra resource investment to fulfill this function and purpose, since neither Light nor Heavy do.

Now, if you disagree with any of these points, you are coming from a different philosophy entirely, so there isn't any sort of useful debate about the means/mechanics to implement the goals. Now, there can be useful discussion about how to meet the goals of this design philosophy while also meeting the goals of a different one (such as that Medium armor's purpose is to provide good options for those who aren't dedicated combatants), provided those philosophies are not actually opposed. "It doesn't matter if..." is a statement that a factor isn't relevant to your philosophy, but not necessarily opposed, so a compatible solution for it along with other philosophies is possible. "I don't want it to be so that..." is a statement of opposition, so there isn't a possibility of a compatible solution.

After the discussion in the past, we derived a fairly simple solution that works for this philosophy. For those with other philosophies who might have people in your group who share this philosophy, you can decide if it fits both or not.

Solution: Medium armor adds either Dexterity (Max +2) bonus or Constitution bonus (Max +2) to your AC, whichever is higher.

This solution works because because adventurers in general, and focused combatants in particular, almost always have a 14 in Constitution, meaning they get the full benefit of Medium armor without any extra investment (#5). With that +2 bonus to your Medium armor AC for everyone (#3), the Heavy > Medium > Light scale (#2) holds across all levels of play (#4), fulfilling the overall goal (#1)

I also recommend changing the Medium Armor Master feat to provide a straight up +1 benefit to AC in Medium armor. That way your Medium armor can provide equal or (usually) better AC than Light armor for a Stealth-using character who is Strength-focused. This is particularly useful for some ranger archetypes, but it also works for any other Strength-focused character who wants to wear good armor without a Stealth penalty. This, however, is not a necessary change to make the solution work (allowing Con bonus to Medium is the only necessary change); it is simply a way to allow the Medium Armor Master feat to actually provide a useful benefit to Medium armor in the same way as Heavy Armor Master provides a benefit to Heavy armor, by providing an option for improvement that Light doesn't, providing more emphasis on Medium being better than Light.

Other Ramifications: Applying this change to monsters (and you should) means there are a few monsters whose CR's might jump up. To keep it simple though, I wouldn't worry about it unless their AC jumps by 4 or more, because that is the minimum amount necessary to guarantee that their CR will increase by 1. As far as I am aware, there are no monsters in the Monster Manual whose AC will increase by 4 or more with this change. With an increase of 2 or 3 there is a (theoretically) 50% chance that their CR won't increase, and with an increase of 1 there is a 75% chance their CR will not increase. I think ogres are the biggest change with 3, and duergar are the runner up with 2. So nobody necessarily even has a changed CR. For the vast majority of monsters, no change to CR is necessary--and for many monsters in Medium armor, no change to AC even takes place.

Visualization: So what can the Con mod bonus option represent in the fiction? First, let's think about what the Light and Heavy armor defaults can represent. An unarmored character basically is dodging blows with the Dexterity, and Light armor is effectively just a slight boost over that. Essentially, you can see it as stopping glancing blows from penetrating the armor. Dexterity mods (including penalties) don't apply to Heavy armor, so you can see its bulk, weight, and fit as having a stabilizing but limiting effect on your finer muscular reactions--the kinds where someone with high Dex might be able to dodge well, but someone with low Dex might be more likely to dodge the wrong direction. Heavy armor still allows the gross muscular reactions of some dodging (which is why certain normal tactical situations can provide advantage or disadvantage on attacks against you), but not enough for your Dexterity to matter. Medium armor can function the same as Light armor, but if your Dex is less than 14 but your Con is 14 or higher, you can see it as your armor blocking the worst of the hit, and you being able to take the remainder of the force well. The blunt trauma, or cuts and pricks, that make it through aren't enough to cause damage to you if the hit missed because of your Con mod. It's not perfect, but it's about as strong as any justification for Heavy armor not being penalized for low Dex.
 
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Solution: Medium armor adds either Dexterity (Max +2) bonus or Constitution bonus (Max +2) to your AC, whichever is higher.
I appreciate the effort of the post, but your solution doesn't logically follow. I mean, it's probably good enough for practical purposes, but it's still in violation of rule 5. If requiring a Dexterity of 14 is considered a burden, then requiring either Dexterity or Constitution of 14 must logically be the same category of burden (albeit to a lesser extent).

An easier way to meet your design criteria would be to remove Dexterity contributions from medium armor altogether. Just calculate everything as though you had Dex 14, without actually requiring it. A chain shirt has AC 15, and half-plate has AC 17, regardless of your Dex. That meets all of your requirements.
 

Hide doesn't count; like Padded and Ring, it is an inferior armor that is only used in edge cases (poor Druid).

Half-Plate would get an upgrade too.

And I don't want "everyone to be the same". Not all medium armor classes can "afford" the Dex 14. That's a hard sell for many clerics in my book. The point is to ensure that the growth of characters can be equal given optimal circumstances.

I'm okay with Medium equalling Light or Heavy because Medium has its advantages. Over Light, medium requires less investment in Dex. Over heavy, it requires less investment in Strength. It's great for those characters, but it falls behind for Barbarians and Rangers who are focusing on strength (though it is less of a problem for barbarians, once they start pumping Con they can often beat out the medium armors).

It's about everyone having a +2 AC growth in their progression while doing their normal stuff. Light armor wearers upgrade their Dex, medium and heavy upgrade their gear.

But investing in DEX is what characters with light and medium armors are supposed to do if you want the best protection possible, so you really can think that they can't afford it. Every class has one prime ability score (which varies between builds even), so DEX can nearly always be secondary or tertiary. With a standard point buy you can have 14,14,14,10,10,10 before racial mods. That means really any starting character could have a DEX 14 if they want a "better AC". If other things are their priority, then their AC will suffer by comparison. For characters like Barbarians and Rangers who are focusing on strength, then inflicting damage is more important to them than avoiding it. Which is fine, its their priority.

The armors themselves have growth as you indicate. Removing DEX, Light is only +1, Medium has +3 (ok, +2 if you insist on ignoring Hide armor), and Heavy has a +4 (ok, +2 if you ignore Ring mail).

Since the scale runs from 11 to 18 currently:

11-12
13-15 (ignoring Hide)
16-18 (ignoring Ring mail)

As I outlined before, if you want the "best" armor for medium with AC 15, you are willing to accept the disadvantage. If you want to be better at stealth, you are more likely to have the DEX to support the AC 14 armor. You CAN match the best Light AC 17 even with its DEX 20 by medium AC 15 and DEX 14. I get that you want a stealthy-armor which can match the best Light AC 17, but you need the DEX to do it if you create an AC 15 stealthy armor. Without the DEX 14, you're encroaching on heavy's AC 16 and better.

I mean, does it bother you that the best Light AC 17 is better than or equal to most of the Heavies?
 

This arguement has been basically over for a while. But hey, feel free to come in, announce that your philosophy is different than the oppositions and discount all of the arguements that you didn't read to the contrary preceding your own super-informed analysis. FYI, nope, I didn't read all of that either, figured you earned the same treatment and I'm way too tired to sort through it all right now.

That said, I basically got the just of it. And while I somewhat agree that you shouldn't be able to achieve the same level of protection with light armors you do from medium, let alone heavy, The rules are written that way for a reason. In fact, they are a direct descendant of prior editions armor rules. One of my favorite builds of old was to take a breastplate and rock a 16 dex to come with the equivalence, or nearly so, of full plate. That's about where we're at now. Except heavy armor doesn't gain any dex bonus to AC. Of course, it also isn't subject to a dex penalty, which was possible in earlier editions. So in a way, that kind of evens out. But hey, if you want to change anything, just give all heavy armors a free +1 modifier over what they already get. That way you will have a true 1 point step up between each armour's max bonus.

Of course, in the end, it really doesn't matter. Very rarely will all these mad calculations actually come into effect in the game. As-is, the 20 dex dex character at lv 1 is an example of this. To pull it off, you really do have to roll an 18 and still take advantageous racial mods to pull it off. At that point, you basically deserve to have a ridiculous armor class. And it probably still won't save you all that well when the D20's hit the table.

I'm done with this topic. Played out is played out.
 

Hi everyone. I'd like to talk about medium armor, and possibly about improving it. 4E got rid of the concept of medium armor and just had lights and heavies. Some armor was just flat out better than others, but proficiencies were given out by armor and not all at once. 3E had varied max dex bonuses, allowing everyone to aim for roughly the same 17-18 AC (with full-plate and padded being special).

5E is ... different. Light and Heavy Armors line up pretty well on their own. Studded Leather is the basic light armor (it's cheap enough that you could have it at first level) at 12+Dex AC. Chainmail is the basic heavy armor, for 16 AC.

For a light armor wearer starting with 16 Dex (doable for dex fighter, ranger, and rogue, and more warrior inclined light armor casters), this is AC 15 compared to heavy armor's AC 16. The light armor wearer can boost their Dex twice, ending with AC 17, while the heavy armor wearer can upgrade their armor twice, ending with AC 18.

That's good. That's balanced.

What about medium armor? Well, a medium armor wearer needs a Dex of 14 to maximize their AC, which can be doable with standard array but really limits options. Chain and Scale are the baseline medium armors. With a 14 Dex, Chain is AC 15, and Scale is AC 16. Scale comes with stealth penalties, just like heavy armor, so the comparison is good here. Medium armor gets to upgrade once, to 16 or 17 AC accordingly ... but that's it.

So, not only does Medium armor require you to make Dex a secondary or tertiary stat (which limits character options in my opinion), but it ends up having lower AC than light armor or heavy armor.

I feel like medium armor needs 2 boosts. I feel like the distinction between "light medium" armors that don't penalize stealth, and "heavy medium" armors that do penalize stealth aren't really utilized. I've personally never seen a character proficient in stealth who wasn't a dex focused character, so medium armor wouldn't benefit them anyway. But maybe I play with power gamers.

I'm not sure where the balance point should be. Medium Armor proficiency is paired with shield proficiency generally speaking, but shield use comes with its own hand things. I feel like medium should be an all around improvement over light, and heavy should be an improvement over medium. I'm not sure "disadvantage on stealth" is really in the same category as "+1 AC" to be balanced against it. I'm not sure "you don't need to invest in Dex" is also a "point" in favor of Medium armor, as investing in lower Dex still comes with its own penalties.

So, where do you think Medium armor should be? Should medium armor always be +1 AC over light? Should heavy always be +1 AC over medium? Should "disadvantage on stealth" be worth +1 AC? Is 14 Dex too must to ask for medium armor wearers?

IMO,

Heavy armor proficiency is supposed to be important so it would provide a greater AC bonus. I honestly would lean toward +2 AC more than light armor. I like AC 18 for plate. Keep the stealth disadvantage.

Medium Armor max ac would be 15+dex (max+2) = 17 with disadvanate on stealth or 14+dex(max+2) = 16 with no disadvantage on stealth.

Light armor max ac would be 11+dex

That said, I don't feel like 5e has the values so far off base that I find it worth tweaking them.
 

Personally, I like that half-plate has disadvantage on stealth while a breatsplate doesn't. Medium armour wearers then have to decide stealth vs. armour when armouring up.
 


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