LIfe Without Alignment

[Zaruthustran]

I'm happy to see alignment go away. But I also recognize the game system use for alignment.

For example, demons with DR that can only be overcome by Good or Lawful weapons. That's fun, that's cool, that's one of the ways D&D 3E used "alignment".

A simple solution would be consolidating "Good" & "Lawful" (as damage types) into a more generic and useful "Holy" damage. This damage would roughly mean "blessed by a God", and could be granted by any deity from Pelor to Lolth*. That'd satisfy the game mechanical need for certain creatures only being hurt by divine weapons, while ditching the behavioral connotations of "Good" or "Lawful".

-z

* you could solve the RP problem of a paladin of Pelor wielding a Lolth-blessed weapon just for its Holy damage buff by using a system similar to 3E's relic activations. For example: Holy weapons only deal Holy damage if wielded by a worshiper of the deity that granted the blessing. Simple.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Imo they removed alignment because many people didn't bother to read the rules for it and instead used their real world morality in the game which, of course, didn't worked at all.

Or because the rules were crudely implemented, nonsensical (good poisons are ok, regular ones arent?), conflicting and waaaaaay too subjective.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Have you ever played another RPG other than D&D? I can't think (off hand) of any other game that has alignment, and certainly I've never heard of anyone complaining that their GURPS or HERO or whatever other system game spiralled out of control because of the lack of roleplaying guidance that alignment causes.

I owned about 100 or so different RPGs at my peak (some unpublished), and in 30 years of gaming, I've played maybe 30 more beyond what I've owned.

Alignment systems are the exceptions and not the rule, but even in a lot of alignment-free games, there are "penalties" for straying outside of socially acceptable norms. Usually they're just not ensconced in the rules, they're part of the setting.

For example, in most HERO campaigns, players play superheroes. If they kill too many perps or destroy too many buildings, they may wind up being arrested for murder. Even in an espionage RPG, there are agency rules that- if violated- can result in your PC being fired or even hunted by his own people.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm not a huge fan of the D&D alignment system, but I feel curiously sad to see it go...

 

[FourthBear]

For example, in most HERO campaigns, players play superheroes. If they kill too many perps or destroy too many buildings, they may wind up being arrested for murder. Even in an espionage RPG, there are agency rules that- if violated- can result in your PC being fired or even hunted by his own people.

That's not really an in game system like alignment. That's "actions have consequences." Are people worried that without alignment on the character sheet that actions will cease to have consquences? In game systems in other RPGs that could be likened to alignment would be the various Humanity scales in WoD or Karma in Marvel Super Heroes. I'll also note that I wouldn't think that either of those two cases you mentioned would be helped with a D&D alignment system.

 

[Mistwell]

Lessening the impact of alignment on the game is one of the changes I am most pleased with in this new incarnation of the game. Alignment in my experience was more often a stranglehold on good role playing, rather than an incentive for it. I even hare alignment detection magic, which seemed like a cheap and silly means of determining who is good and who is evil. I think Monte Cook had the right idea with alignment in Arcana Evolved, and I am really pleased WOTC is heading more in that direction with 4e.

 

[Desdichado]

I think 4e's take is the right one---it plays to the nostalgia of alignment without making it a crutch or burden for those who don't like it. It still applies to outsiders and the extremely zealous, but the idea of the vast majority of the world simply being unaligned makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's not really an game system like alignment. That's "actions have consequences."

I'm sorry I was unclear- that was my point.

Instead of an alignment system set in rules mechanics, HERO uses the DM's particular campaign setting to reinforce good/evil roles.

That said, I'm sorry to see the D&D system go. IME, alignment systems are less RP straitjacket and more guide to RP in a fantasy world in which Good and Evil, Law and Chaos are tangible forces.

I'll also note that I wouldn't think that either of those two cases you mentioned would be helped with a D&D alignment system.

It would depend upon what an alignment system meant to the PC in the context of the game. If a HERO PC's powers were linked to his being a good person (which, BTW, is perfectly possible under the HERO rules) and he starts comitting acts of "police brutality," his powers would either start to diminish, or perhaps he'd start to lose control of them. In HERO as it stands, that kind of stricture would be written into the PC's Power Limitations or Character Disads. It could even be done as a package deal for a Fantasy Hero version of the Paladin.

In a Spy RPG, an alignment system would probably be less useful, since by their nature, spies are always operating in grey areas and taking questionable, possibly even illegal actions.

 

[Counterspin]

Even in communities with much higher rules understanding than an average game (here, GiantITP) alignment questions turn into huge fights. If even the most hardcore adherents of the system aren't getting the same message from the alignment chapter, then it's useless for any task.

Additionally, I don't need to check the PHB to tell me what my character is going to do in a situation. As a descriptor of what your character is, at a base level, it was a clunky, useless marker. As a definition of what your character is, it's a restriction to roleplay. Let it rot, I say.

Retaining alignment as a mostly supernatural marker for the most severe adherents of a religion and outsiders is fine.

 

[Wormwood]

I've never played in a game where alignment featured; even in my D&D games we minimize it to the point of nonexistence without formally removing it.

Alignment rules are useless, because good players do not need them and bad players are made no better by them.

(with apologies to Plato)