Limited Wish and metamagic

[Kae'Yoss]

I'd rule that you could only wish for a metamagic effect for which you already have the feat in question.

That would be like limiting limited wish to spells you know. I say, if you can wish for every spell, why not for every metamagic?


But there's another way of abuse: Limited wish costs 300 XP or the amount the spell costs. So if you cast a spell that costs 500 XP anyway, there's no difference between casting the spell or casting LW. If you know of two or more of these spells, you only have to learn LW and use it to cast one of these spells on the fly.
Of course, there are not that many spells of level 6 or lower with an XP cost of 300 or more that you would cast on a whim, but it's possible...

 

[Al]

I'd say that you can't cast 10mins spell using Lim Wish in one round.
Important 'combat-use' 10minuters could be Planar Binding or Reincarnate. These are potent spells anyway, but I don't like seeing 16HD outsiders being bound into the middle of combat, and I have severe reservations with dead characters bouncing back from the dead in the course of six seconds (albeit in a new body- Raise Dead is 5th, and you can only emulate 4th level cleric spells I think).
So casting time should be LW or the spell if it is longer.

 

[hong]

That would be like limiting limited wish to spells you know.

Since when has limited wish given you access to every spell?

I say, if you can wish for every spell, why not for every metamagic?

Because I said so.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

LW has never given you access to every spell there is. But it has ALWAYS (or at least since 3e, I don't know about former versions of the spell) given you access to

• any sor/wiz spell of 6th level or lower if it's not from a school prohibited to you
• any sor/wiz spell of 5th level or lower, even if it is from a school prohibited to you
• any spell of 5th level or lower, unlsess it's from a prohibited school
• ANY spell of 4th level or lower

Of course, you can't cast no meteor swarm with your LW, or harm. But you could cast fireball even if you're a conjurer and forswore the use of evocation spells. That's hardly a spell you can cast.

So, if you are able to wish for a spell that you couldn't cast in normal circumstances, you can as well wish for a spell changed with a metamagic feat you don't have. It would be illogical otherwise!

 

[James McMurray]

Important 'combat-use' 10minuters could be Planar Binding or Reincarnate.

Except that reincarnate requires an hour (even without the casting time) and Planar Binding still requires you to cajole a service out of the creature.

Since there haven't been any replies on the other thread, lets continue this one here. A few spells I found that could be useful in combat are:

(un)hallow - tie a dispel magic to it and watch your foes' boosts wither away while your cleric buddy annihilates their undead allies. There are tons of good spells to tie to it.

commune - "Oh great Pelor, does this demon have fire resistance?" "No, great, maximized fireballs coming online."

break enchantment - I don't care if you did steal his sould and curse him seven times, we'll get that fixed right up."

restoration - Especially against those pesky level drainers

zone of respite - Sorry, no teleportational escape or gating of allies today Mr. Demon.

 

[hong]

Of course, you can't cast no meteor swarm with your LW, or harm. But you could cast fireball even if you're a conjurer and forswore the use of evocation spells. That's hardly a spell you can cast.

Exactly. Limited wish has _limits_ on it. (And in fact, so does wish.)

So, if you are able to wish for a spell that you couldn't cast in normal circumstances, you can as well wish for a spell changed with a metamagic feat you don't have.

Why?

It would be illogical otherwise!

Why?

 

[James McMurray]

I do agree that being able to wish for metamagicked spells does not automatically gaurantee being able to wish for long casting time spells.

That being said though, I will allow wishing for longer casting time spells, as I can't really see it as being a game breaker. Additionally, if the spell intended that, wouldn't it have said so? It specifically mentions material and xp components.

Of course, if anyone can give me an example of how this would break the game, please do.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Why?

Little conversation about Ted the Mage and your friendly Genie Spell Service:

Ted casts limited wish
Ted: "Hi, Genie, I need to air walk today, as the 4th level cleric spell."
Genie: "Ever saw a cleric use that?"
T: "No."
G: "Ever saw a cleric cast that?"
T: "No."
G: "How do you know of that one?"
T: "Yesterday, I was in that funny tavern in my town. And there was that wandering minstrel that sang and told stories about some really heroic cleric of pelor who even could walk on thin air! I asked if he knew the spell, and he said he did, and it was air walk."
G: "So you want to cast a spell which you know only on description and which, let me see...., is from a school you may not cast at all, since you are a specialist mage, and no cleric?"
T: "Yes....."
G: "Fine! Here you go!"

This is no problem at all: Sure, he is no cleric. Sure, he may usually cast no spells from the transmutation school. Sure, he hasn't even seen that bloody spell a single time. But he can cast it via limited wish, since it states any spell of 4th level and lower.
The limits of the spell are that he uses a 7th level slot and only gets a 4th level spell (or, if all is ideal, a 6th level spell). No time stop for you, Ted!

A week later, Ted cast limited wish again:
T: "Hi, see that horde of succubi? Their positions would be just right to use Chain Lightning on them, according to Mordenkainens Book of Spell Tactics, Volume II. But I know that the're immune to lightning. But the tactic would be so nice. But I have an idea: A friend of mine is an elemental savant: he has this nice metamagic of energy substitution, which he can use to turn just everything into a cold spell! He showed me several times how he prepared those fireballs differently, I'm going to learn that metamagic right next week. But then it will be to late. The succubi will be gone!"
G: "Get to the point!"
T: "Right! You see, I want a Chain Lightning spell, only that I want it with cold instead of lightning, as with the metamagic feat!"
G: "No."
T: "No?"
G: "No!"
T: "Why?"
G: "We just don't offer metamagic! Read our terms of business!"
T: "But it states nowhere that you do or don't offer them! You have to.... hey! Where are you? Come back! Come back you wee.... Hello, ladies...."

See? Limited wish says nowhere that you can't use metamagic (it doesn't say cou can, either). But a spell that provides you with just about any spell of 4th level and lower, no matter what it is, or any spell of 6th level and lower that you could as well learn yourself (that's a load of spells!), and thereby offers you lots of possibilities, should also be able to provide you with spells changed with metamagic feats, assuming they use no spell slot that is to high for you, even if you aren't able to change spells with that particular metamagic yourself (after all, you can cast cleric spells, and you aren't even supposed to know how they're cast. You could even cure yourself for 4d8 + 13 or so damage using limited wish!)

 

[Vaxalon]

Very convincing, KY, thank you for posting.

 

[hong]

Little conversation about Ted the Mage and your friendly Genie Spell Service:

(snip irrelevant burbling)

See?

No. Your point being...?

Limited wish says nowhere that you can't use metamagic (it doesn't say cou can, either).

Exactly. In such situations, where the rulebooks are silent, it's up to the DM to use judgement as to what is the most appropriate ruling for his/her campaign. IOW, "because I said so".

But a spell that provides you with just about any spell of 4th level and lower, no matter what it is, or any spell of 6th level and lower that you could as well learn yourself (that's a load of spells!), and thereby offers you lots of possibilities, should also be able to provide you with spells changed with metamagic feats, assuming they use no spell slot that is to high for you, even if you aren't able to change spells with that particular metamagic yourself (after all, you can cast cleric spells, and you aren't even supposed to know how they're cast. You could even cure yourself for 4d8 + 13 or so damage using limited wish!)

Every time you use "should" in the Rules Forum, an ANGEL DIES. Please not to drag subjective value judgements into the debate.

I think limited wish is quite powerful enough as it is, without metamagic feats muddying the picture. You're free to think otherwise. Please don't think your opinion has any real basis beyond what "feels right", or has any validity outside your own campaign.