Limited Wish and metamagic

[Kae'Yoss]

Every time you use "should" in the Rules Forum, an ANGEL DIES. Please not to drag subjective value judgements into the debate.

Let them die, I say. The Shadow has no use for those do-gooders, anyway!

This whole debate is about subjective value judgements. There's no rule that clearly states one way or the other. If there was, that thread would not exist.

Your "not possible, it's _limited_ wish" is just your opinion, just as my opinion is that "if you can cast healing spells with it, you can use metamagic with it".

I think limited wish is quite powerful enough as it is, without metamagic feats muddying the picture. You're free to think otherwise.

It better be quite powerful, it's a damn 7th-level spell, usable by high-level characters. You won't get "put a 1HD animal to sleep for 1 round" with that!

Also, using metamagic feats would (usually) mean that the spell must be of a lower level. So you won't end up with a empowered maximized cure critical wounds or a enlarged chain lightning. The level adjustments see to it that you will recieve nothing to powerful for a 4th level slot in a 4th level slot.

Please don't think your opinion has any real basis beyond what "feels right", or has any validity outside your own campaign.

That's outright stupid. Cloudgatherer actually asked for everyone's opinion on that matter. He wouldn't do so if the only opinion that mattered to him was his own! And please don't forget that the same thing counts for you, too. So, as this is neither my campaign nor yours, our opinions are equally worthless....

 

[hong]

Your "not possible, it's _limited_ wish" is just your opinion, just as my opinion is that "if you can cast healing spells with it, you can use metamagic with it".

Exactly. And hence your assertion

So, if you are able to wish for a spell that you couldn't cast in normal circumstances, you can as well wish for a spell changed with a metamagic feat you don't have. It would be illogical otherwise!

... is itself illogical and absurd.

Have you been conferring with Magus_Jerel, he of the Capitalized Self-Reference?

Also, using metamagic feats would (usually) mean that the spell must be of a lower level. So you won't end up with a empowered maximized cure critical wounds or a enlarged chain lightning. The level adjustments see to it that you will recieve nothing to powerful for a 4th level slot in a 4th level slot.

That's what they ALL say.

I say that the spell doesn't provide for metamagic, and hence such spell-enhancing effects must be provided for by the spellcaster herself. If she doesn't have the requisite ability, then the effect cannot take place. This has an insignificant impact on the utility of limited wish; you use it for the purpose of accessing six zillion spells, not to take advantage of a few feats.

That's outright stupid. Cloudgatherer actually asked for everyone's opinion on that matter.

And I provided my opinion, namely that metamagic feats don't come into it.

He wouldn't do so if the only opinion that mattered to him was his own! And please don't forget that the same thing counts for you, too. So, as this is neither my campaign nor yours, our opinions are equally worthless....

Yep.

Did I mention that your opinion was illogical?

 

[apsuman]

Since opinions were asked for I will weigh in on the side of allowing metamagic feats on the spells emulated by a Limited Wish.

Although nobody asked, I would aslo say that you can meta magic the Wish as well, so if you could cast 12th level spells, you could have a quickened Limited Wish that would allow for those 6th level spells to happen as a free action.

But then again, nobody asked me.


g!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

... is itself illogical and absurd.

Have you been conferring with Magus_Jerel, he of the Capitalized Self-Reference?

You won't belief it, but I made it all up all by myself!

you use it for the purpose of accessing six zillion spells, not to take advantage of a few feats.

Think of it that way: Healing spells are supposed to be for divine spellcasters only (Bards don't count, since they're the designated jacks-of-all-trades)! Wizards aren't supposed to be good at healing (they should have few to none spells that can give the caster and his allies hit points back.) Almost all spells on the Wiz list that did such a thing were ferreted out, and the remaining spells have it's limits (vampiric touch works only for the caster and requires a touch attack). So you could describe the ability to heal others without the need of a nearby victim to steal the life force from a class feature for divine spellcasters. And if limited wish should not provide the one time use of a feat for the cost of 300 XP (what will be very expensive very quickly! I'd rather get a rod of metamagic for that!), it should forbid the use of such an imoprtant feature of another class all the more!

And I provided my opinion, namely that metamagic feats don't come into it

That was not about you providing your opinion. It was about saying that other people's opinion have no valid basis and that they're worth nothing for everyone else (you didn't use these very words, but the message was quite clear). Saying such things in a forum, where advices are asked for and given, where opinions are shared, where everyone is free to tell his point of view, makes absolutely no sense!

Did I mention that your opinion was illogical?

I would say the same about your opinion. Please elaborate.

 

[hong]

And if limited wish should not provide the one time use of a feat for the cost of 300 XP (what will be very expensive very quickly! I'd rather get a rod of metamagic for that!), it should forbid the use of such an imoprtant feature of another class all the more!

And as I said, feats are distinct from spells. Limited wish grants you the ability to cast lots of different spells, but spells are only one aspect of a character's powers. For example, limited wish doesn't allow you to gain arbitrary feats, boost an arbitrary skill by +10 or +20, and yet this could be considered to be less of a drain on arcane power than granting arbitrary spells. There is nothing "illogical" in this, it's just a matter of how you view the spell works.

That was not about you providing your opinion. It was about saying that other people's opinion have no valid basis and that they're worth nothing for everyone else (you didn't use these very words, but the message was quite clear).

Tough. You said it first, and I was merely elaborating.

You seem a bit stressed. May I recommend Counterstrike?

Saying such things in a forum, where advices are asked for and given, where opinions are shared, where everyone is free to tell his point of view, makes absolutely no sense!

So don't say it.

I would say the same about your opinion.

You did. Or have you forgotten already?

 

[Plane Sailing]

KaeYoss: excellent explanation of your position.

Hong: please give it a rest.

Regards

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hong: Where, exactly, did I say or imply that your opinion is worthless?

 

[hong]

Hong: Where, exactly, did I say or imply that your opinion is worthless?

I don't know why you're so upset. You said my ruling was illogical, so I pointed out that your ruling is just as illogical. If "illogical" equates to "worthless", well then, there you go.

 

[Al]

I think hong does have a line of argument, and I can see precisely where he is coming from, but I would nevertheless be inclined to disagree.

If I were hong, the argument was follow the lines that Limited Wish can emulate a 6th level spell and NOT (say) a Maximised 3rd level spell. This is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules, and he is perfectly entitled to this interpretation.

Despite this, in my campaign I interpret it slightly different. I tend to permit Limited Wish to emulate metamagic feats. Why? I can't explain why- call it DM's intuition. I can neither justify nor explain it. I don't think that KaeYoss' example actually helps much. For one, the average 13th level wizard has at least Spellcraft+20 and would have close to an encyclopaedic knowledge of every spell in existence and every metamagic feat known to man (c'mon, there are people in RL who have this). Neither does a clever narrative necessary support a point.

It's vague, it's true. I would probably argue that it's just one of those points that can be widely interpreted: one where not only is there no 'right' answer, but indeed that neither side can be justified further than the other. Balance and power is not a good enough one: the cost of 300XP is, let's face it, relatively trivial, given that the average encounter at such level yields 3.5 times this amount (4 13th level chars v. CR13 monster). Limited Wish is also very powerful, even given level- nothing else affords such versatility.

I wish I could come to a substantiable conclusion, but I'm afraid I'm a fence-sitter on this one. Just run with whatever you think is comfortable.

Edit: hong, I don't think lashing out at Magus_Jerel helps. We may both have had arguments with him, but citing him as a paragon of stupidity doesn't help anyone...had it been nwn_deadman, perhaps that's a different matter (anyone remember the Miracle/Wish XP thread?) (jk- no offence to anyone)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I don't know why you're so upset. You said my ruling was illogical, so I pointed out that your ruling is just as illogical. If "illogical" equates to "worthless", well then, there you go.

No, It's not about being illogical. You told me that my opinion has no valid base outside my campaign. That equals "worthless" IMHO. That was not about being illogical at all.