Limited Wish and metamagic

[Kae'Yoss]

If I were hong, the argument was follow the lines that Limited Wish can emulate a 6th level spell and NOT (say) a Maximised 3rd level spell. This is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules, and he is perfectly entitled to this interpretation.

Noone doubts that. But allowing metamagic is a perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules, too. It ain't stated clearly in the rules one way or the other, so it's up to the DM. In an open forum, where this is discussed, there is no DM, though, and so everyone's opinion counts the same.

I don't think that KaeYoss' example actually helps much. For one, the average 13th level wizard has at least Spellcraft+20 and would have close to an encyclopaedic knowledge of every spell in existence and every metamagic feat known to man (c'mon, there are people in RL who have this).

Note that there are so many different sources of spells (consider all the d20 material) that no person in RL could know them all (at least it's very unlikely). The same's true for in-game: There are a lot of spells that the character could not know of, but the player does (maybe a spell created by some evil wizard and closely guarded!). There were countless of those critters in the old "Pages from the Mages". Yet you could duplicate them if you go strictly by the description of limited wish, as it says "any spell.."

Neither does a clever narrative necessary support a point.

But it stated clearly what I meant. Also, I was in a very good mood when I wrote it and I thought I'd relax the atmosphere a little

It's vague, it's true. I would probably argue that it's just one of those points that can be widely interpreted

Of course it's one of those points! The rules don't support either argument, so it's just a matter of taste. I brought up what I thought sounded right, and supported it with the reasons why I thought so. That's all I can do. And noone can do more (unless he's an official from Wizards and puts that into errata. But I don't think that will happen)

 

[hong]

No, It's not about being illogical. You told me that my opinion has no valid base outside my campaign. That equals "worthless" IMHO.

And your point is...?

That was not about being illogical at all.

Do you even know what "illogical" means?

 

[James McMurray]

Spoken like a master baiter.

 

[Zerovoid]

I think the important thing to remember is that limited wish does not allow the wizard or sorceror to cast extra spells from the cleric spell list and such. It allows him to wish for effects that are adjudicated by using spells as a reference to check for balance.

He doesn't have to know that airwalk is a cleric spell to be able to say, "I wish to be able to walk on air."

So, the wizard wouldn't need the feat, he just wishes for what he wants, "I wish an fireball twice as big as normal would blow up right there." In this example, he doesn't need enlarge, he just needs to wish for something.

If this is true, then the idea that anything that takes up a 4th level cleric slot has the same power, and is thus balanced for limited wish makes alot more sense.

 

[hong]

Spoken like a master baiter.

I've been a master baiter since 1993 IKYWIM, etc et al.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think the important thing to remember is that limited wish does not allow the wizard or sorceror to cast extra spells from the cleric spell list and such. It allows him to wish for effects that are adjudicated by using spells as a reference to check for balance.

He doesn't have to know that airwalk is a cleric spell to be able to say, "I wish to be able to walk on air."

So, the wizard wouldn't need the feat, he just wishes for what he wants, "I wish an fireball twice as big as normal would blow up right there." In this example, he doesn't need enlarge, he just needs to wish for something.

If this is true, then the idea that anything that takes up a 4th level cleric slot has the same power, and is thus balanced for limited wish makes alot more sense.

Nice way to describe wish (or limited wish), and it makes perfectly sense.
Another good explanation why LW is more likely to allow metamagic than forbid it. I still wait for one good explanation why limited wish should not be able to copy metamagic effects (we have spells that allow wizards to heal people, we have magic to make non-rogues be able to deal with traps properly, we have sorcery that turns a wizard into a fighter, there even was a dweomer once that could allow you to replace a god, and I think that I've seen a couple of other spells that grant you one feat or the other, so a spell that gives you access to metamagic at the cost of XP seems minor!)

 

[hong]

I still wait for one good explanation why limited wish should not be able to copy metamagic effects

Define "good".

You seem to have missed the following bit in this thread, from a few geological epochs ago:

I say that the spell doesn't provide for metamagic, and hence such spell-enhancing effects must be provided for by the spellcaster herself. If she doesn't have the requisite ability, then the effect cannot take place. This has an insignificant impact on the utility of limited wish; you use it for the purpose of accessing six zillion spells, not to take advantage of a few feats.

and

as I said, feats are distinct from spells. Limited wish grants you the ability to cast lots of different spells, but spells are only one aspect of a character's powers. For example, limited wish doesn't allow you to gain arbitrary feats, boost an arbitrary skill by +10 or +20, and yet this could be considered to be less of a drain on arcane power than granting arbitrary spells.

Now to me, that's a perfectly serviceable handwave for why limited wish might be considered not to allow arbitrary metamagic. You cannot wish to gain Power Attack or Whirlwind Attack, for instance; nor can you wish to gain the effects of these feats. This rationale can easily be extended to metamagic feats.

You may think it's rot, and that's your prerogative. It doesn't change the fact that a rationale _can_ be found for ruling things in either direction.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

First, as the wish spells already grant you access to every spell up to a certain level (depending on what list the spell appears or what school it comes from), the possibilities are near endless (consider that, theoretically, every resource of d20 or D&D rules could be used. That's an awful lot of spells!). So, considering power through versatilaty, wish won't gain that much power if you allow metamagic.

Second, you don't wish for the use of the metamagic feat but for a spell cast modified with a metamagic feat. So you don't generally gain the use of that metamagic feat, you can emulate it with one spell, just as you can emulate the spell itself with wish (as again, you don't gain that spell, but only get it cast once. You couldn't cast wish to cast a fireball, only to learn how fireball works and prepare it from now on.)

Also, you don't need the prerequisites to cast that spell, so why would you need prerequisites to use a metamagic feat with wish? You don't need WIS 11 to get cure light wounds , you don't need CHA 15 to receive dispel taint(a Shugenja 5 spell) You could even cast truth is a scourge without the needed blood sacrifice necessary with maho. And, of course, you can cast spells from a school that is prohibited to you. And you ultimately don't have the prerequisites for that!

 

[Maudlin]

I have to chime in on behalf of KY here. Feats are most certainly distinct from spells, but LW wouldn't grant a feat, it'd grant a metamagic'ed spell.

Compare it to scrolls. Are you suggesting someone without the Maximize feat could not use a scroll of Maximized Fireball? Once the feat is applied, it becomes an inherent property of the (higher-level) spell. You don't need to know the spell, and you don't need to be able to maximize to release the energy.

As a nitpick on KY, Vampiric Touch doesn't heal but rather gives temporary hp that disappear at the end of the spell duration

 

[hong]

First, as the wish spells already grant you access to every spell up to a certain level

Irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned.

So, considering power through versatilaty, wish won't gain that much power if you allow metamagic.

By the same consideration, wish won't lose that much power if you disallow metamagic.

Second, you don't wish for the use of the metamagic feat but for a spell cast modified with a metamagic feat.

Meaningless semantics, as far as I'm concerned.

Also, you don't need the prerequisites to cast that spell, so why would you need prerequisites to use a metamagic feat with wish?

Who said anything about prerequisites?

You seem to have missed the point. I'm not attacking your reasons for allowing limited wish to grant metamagic. I'm pointing out the existence of a valid rationale for disallowing metamagic. All of your verbosity (including (excessive) parenthetical remarks (which make your posts look (more than a bit) like LISP code)) does a great job of shoring up your position, but means absolutely jack when it comes to invalidating alternative positions.