D&D 5E Long Rests vs Short Rests

[tetrasodium]

Not so. The cantrips work on clerics (who are hardly glass cannons) and warlocks (who are only slightly glassier). And alchemists if we're going outside the PHB.

The huge thing here is that martials should be winning the combats, all else being equal. If you're trying to balance across all three pillars rather than for just one then spells have a clear and obvious advantage. So the fighter ought to be the strongest combat. The clue's in the name "fighter"

That would be fine, but buff debuff control & so on were also knocked silly by monsters combating the LFQW of old editions, spells being downtuned to avoid LFQW, & concentration being overused on basically everything in their wheelhouse. Meanwhile the damage from those cantrips is almost meaningless to their role in the party so can not posibly make up for the disparity. It's a problem of "they can do something" not being enough to justify the resulting hamstrung disparity between roles once you pile everything on the scales

Turn it around. "casters can do something in some contrived highly specific noncombat situation if the spell is known/prepared" is so squarely in "What Kind of Lame Power Is Heart, Anyway?" that nearly every condition for it is met

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yes, I too want magical characters to feel magical. To me it's just that magic being plentiful and spammable makes it feel less magical. It becomes just spamming some video gamey glowy pew pew. I prefer magic to be powerful but precious.

I'm exactly the opposite. I prefer fantastic and wonderous magic to special or novel magic. To me, in order to be fantastic, something needs to be experienced and increasing rarity limits exposure.

I akin to a favorite teddy bear you keep by your side for years vs that Hungry Hungry Hippos game you got for Xmas, and was fun to play a few times because it was new and exciting, but has been gathering dust since January. D&D magic especially has never been interesting enough to me to justify rarity... partially because it brutally botched Vance's actual system.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Turn it around. "casters can do something in some contrived highly specific noncombat situation if the spell is known/prepared" is so squarely in "What Kind of Lame Power Is Heart, Anyway?" that nearly every condition for it is met

This would be true if and only if casters had one spell. Meanwhile they get a number of spells prepared for each spell level - and there's a reason Sorcerers and Rangers (the actual offenders) have had their number of spells known go up first with Xanathar's then with Tasha's. Meanwhile a level 10 wizard should have 15 spells prepared or one per pillar per spell level. Which is flexible enough.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I would love to see a version of D&D balanced around encounters (which is basically what the short rest is) but that's not the direction 5E took.

They did that in 4E and people HATED it...

 

[Vaalingrade]

They did that in 4E and people HATED it...

And they were wrong to do so.

Objectively wrong.

 

[Asisreo]

This would be true if and only if casters had one spell. Meanwhile they get a number of spells prepared for each spell level - and there's a reason Sorcerers and Rangers (the actual offenders) have had their number of spells known go up first with Xanathar's then with Tasha's. Meanwhile a level 10 wizard should have 15 spells prepared or one per pillar per spell level. Which is flexible enough.

15 spells is paradoxically alot and not at all alot.

Take into account that spells are rather limited. Or, more like, extremely limited in what they can generally do. The spells that are less limited, like illusion spells, are generally seen as worse because they don't force anything as much.

So we got 15 spells, but not really. If you took basic combat-only spells like Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, Fireball, Counterspell, Mirror Image, Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Banishment, and Wall of Force; that leaves only 5 spells for "utility purposes." I took only the "essential" combat spells too. Y'know, the ones that are assumed to be prepared and casted in any form of analysis involving a wizard.

Of course, by "utility," we mean Misty Step, Fly, Dimension Door, Animate Objects, and Greater/Regular Invisibility.

These are all "assumed spells." Nobody would really replace any of these spells for—say—Knock, Tongues, Phantasmal Killer, Arcane Lock, Darkvision, or Gust of Wind.

Rituals are a total wash when it comes to actual utility because nobody actually takes them and their effects are limited moreso than cantrips. Outside of Find Familiar (which eats a whole hour and ten minutes along with a component cost) and Detect Magic (which cancels pre-combat concentration), there's hardly any rituals taken. They're nice to have sometimes, but rituals aren't some kind of cantrip replacement, especially since most are much less useful than prestidigation or minor illusion.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And they were wrong to do so.

Objectively wrong.

Oh. People's game style pretences can be objectively wrong now?

 

[Asisreo]

Oh. People's game style pretences can be objectively wrong now?

According to the internet? Always has been.

 

[Stalker0]

They did that in 4E and people HATED it...

The issue with comparing to 4e is 4e's issue was more presentation than mechanics. A lot of the ideas of 4e were very good, but they were presented so....clinically....little power cards on white sheets that really did make you think of a card or video game. 4e I think had a bigger PR problem than a mechanics one. Doesn't mean it wasn't a big problem, I mean the fact that 4e's handbook reads like a textbook and 5e's reads like a mystical tome is a major improvement on the experience.

Now I think one thing 4e did miss was the idea of repeatable powers. 4e's slots were mainly at will, once per encounter, once per day. And once that power was used, it was used. I think the notion of "Prof mod per day or even per fight" is much smoother. I think people can get behind the idea they can't do a special something in a fight every round all the time, but there is a big difference between one time and never see it again in 5 rounds, vs using something 2 or 3 times.

 

[Neonchameleon]

15 spells is paradoxically alot and not at all alot.

Take into account that spells are rather limited. Or, more like, extremely limited in what they can generally do. The spells that are less limited, like illusion spells, are generally seen as worse because they don't force anything as much.

So we got 15 spells, but not really. If you took basic combat-only spells like Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, Fireball, Counterspell, Mirror Image, Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Banishment, and Wall of Force; that leaves only 5 spells for "utility purposes." I took only the "essential" combat spells too. Y'know, the ones that are assumed to be prepared and casted in any form of analysis involving a wizard.

That's why I don't take all those spells.

For a first I take Wall of Stone over Wall of Force. Wall of Force makes a better combat spell than Wall of Stone - but the ability to permanence a wall and create architecture means I prefer the flexibility. By the same token I take Polymorph over Banishment as my take it out of action spell by default.

Second you're massively overloaded on third level spells. Fireball, counterspell, hypnotic pattern, and haste?

Third I don't rate Mirror Image - an entire action for a couple of hits. I also don't rate Magic Missile - 3.5 damage per magic missile is far far too low to be worth burning a spell slot on especially when Firebolt does 11 damage on average.

Of course, by "utility," we mean Misty Step, Fly, Dimension Door, Animate Objects, and Greater/Regular Invisibility.

Greater Invisibility is a pure combat spell. Misty Step is again more combat.

These are all "assumed spells." Nobody would really replace any of these spells for—say—Knock, Tongues, Phantasmal Killer, Arcane Lock, Darkvision, or Gust of Wind.

It depends on what I was expecting. Tongues and Darkvision in particular (although I'd try to pass Darkvision off on someone else) are spells that can make or break things.

Rituals are a total wash when it comes to actual utility because nobody actually takes them

For a value of "nobody" that doesn't include me or the groups I play in.

and their effects are limited moreso than cantrips. Outside of Find Familiar (which eats a whole hour and ten minutes along with a component cost) and Detect Magic (which cancels pre-combat concentration), there's hardly any rituals taken.

Seriously? No one takes Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Floating Disk, Leomund's Tiny Hut, or Water Breathing? And I'd normally grab Phantom Steed.

They're nice to have sometimes, but rituals aren't some kind of cantrip replacement, especially since most are much less useful than prestidigation or minor illusion.

Who is calling it either or?