D&D 5E Long Rests vs Short Rests

Would you rather have all abilities recover on a:

  • Short Rest

    Votes: 23 32.9%
  • Long Rest

    Votes: 47 67.1%

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I haven't stated the "array of ability scores, four proficiencies, and a background feature" as a strength of the wizard. Just that it is what both characters get as a baseline.
(I'm ignoring the tool, instrument, or language proficiencies, but it could be argued these don't often come into use much).


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Can you explain?
You've been engaging in a gish gallop by providing endless questions & excuses for why you can't provide support for your position that wizards are strong in some vague nonspecific chunk of a noncombat pillar. This is your first attempt to support your position.
You're after level 7 spell loadout? I think this is the one one of the wizards in the group used at that level:
Cantrips Mold Earth, Shape Water, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp,
Level 1 Tasha's Caustic Brew, Shield, Mage armour, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Magic Missile
Level 2 Suggestion, Levitate, Invisibility, Hold Person
Level 3 Fireball, Haste, Summon Undead, Water Breathing
Level 4 Dimension Door, Wall of Fire.

I haven't stated the "array of ability scores, four proficiencies, and a background feature" as a strength of the wizard. Just that it is what both characters get as a baseline.
(I'm ignoring the tool, instrument, or language proficiencies, but it could be argued these don't often come into use much).


I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Can you explain?

You're after level 7 spell loadout? I think this is the one one of the wizards in the group used at that level:
Cantrips Mold Earth, Shape Water, Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp,
Level 1 Tasha's Caustic Brew, Shield, Mage armour, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Identify, Find Familiar, Magic Missile
Level 2 Suggestion, Levitate, Invisibility, Hold Person
Level 3 Fireball, Haste, Summon Undead, Water Breathing
Level 4 Dimension Door, Wall of Fire.
Is that a spellbook? prepared spell list? Also do rogues fighters & barbarians also get to enjoy quantum skill proficiencies & attribute arrays or is that a perk reserved only for wizards? If wizards in your game have quantum attribute arrays & skills while other classes don't I could certainly see how that could lead to your position but that is a problem caused by the addition of a quantum character rather than that character's class. Non-quantum skills & attribute are very much required by the AL rules @Flamestrike suggested using
 

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Thanks to those who have kept the thread on track!
:blush: Apologies.

I'd vote for Long Rest. Having top-end spells refresh on a short rest would be a bit of an issue I think.
Also for all classes, having some "big guns" that you can pull out when you really have to is nice, whereas with all short rest abilities, you're using everything every few fights, reducing their impact and power level.
:censored:
 

Its no different to a Wizard player who only selects combat spells. He's going to suck at the other pillars.
It is different, and you're illustrating that for me with this claim.

The difference is that for a Wizard to change what he's focused on, he just memorizes different spells that day. For a Fighter to change it, he needs to build a new character from the ground up, likely including his subclass. If you can't see that as a major difference, then I'm not sure how to help you.
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
It is different, and you're illustrating that for me with this claim.

The difference is that for a Wizard to change what he's focused on, he just memorizes different spells that day. For a Fighter to change it, he needs to build a new character from the ground up, likely including his subclass. If you can't see that as a major difference, then I'm not sure how to help you.
Don't forget, the people saying that there are no issues with how wizards get hit by 5e's attempts to overcompensate for 3.5's problems are the ones who said that the wizard's real strength lies in pillars other than combat. When asked to justify that earlier with @Flamestrike's 7th level start here with here being what the wizard knows after coming off their last adventure there was one refusal to show that strength with a concrete wizard & a second who provided what might be a prepped list might be a partial spellbook & is absolutely quantum skills plus quantum attribute array.

A wizard can only change their spell list to different spells in their spellbook & the problem there lies in the fact that many of the spells you are alluding to are too niche, barely needed, or do something trivially handled by a character who far outpaces wizard in he combat pillar. If you think your position is as strong as your posts suggest why not post a full wizard for that average adventuring day & prove it to the people who just don't get how great wizards are like you do?
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
I put Long Rest for the post, but honestly, I absolutely enjoy what 5e did with the varying amounts of recharge making for a more dynamic and interesting breadth of character options.

I'm glad Warlocks are mostly short rest, Sorcerers are mostly long rest. It makes it extremely fun to play the different classes without a seeming overlap.

One gripe I had of 4e was that everyone had the same recharge type and the same amounts of powers. In theory, it gave players equity. In reality, it gave more power to players that were neither overwhelmed by the game or could leverage their system mastery that much more.

In 5e, if the DM sees the Warlock players struggle to keep up, they could easily incorporate an extra short rest or two in their adventure design. If the sorcerer struggles, you could reduce the number of encounters between long rests.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Alright, here is a 7th level wizard spell list. Go to work people!

In terms of bonus spells. I assumed a 7th level fighter would at least have access to plate armor and a greatsword in most games (1550 gp). If I give wizards 1 extra spellbook spell per level that 500 gp, so to keep things simple I gave them 3 additional spells of each level. That's technically a little less "equipment" than the fighter has, but close enough for a reasonable comparison (I will also throw in the 25 GP for the augury material component). Its much less than what is assumed in the standard treasure hordes (D&D 5E - Deconstructing 5e: Typical Wealth by Level), but we will assume the rest is magic items or other things.

Known Spells
1st level (11 spells known) - Charm Person, Comprehend Languages (R), Detect Magic (R), False Life, Find Familiar (R), Fog Cloud, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, Unseen Servant (R)
2nd level (7 spells known) - Augury (R), Enhance Ability, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Suggestion, Web
3rd level (7 spells known) - Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut (R), Speak with Dead, Water Breathing (R)
4th level (5 spells known) - Arcane Eye, Banishment, Evard's Black Tentacles, Fabricate, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere

Prepared Spells (Adventuring Day)
*Remember that Wizard's have automatic access to ritual spells. We will assume 11 spells prepared (aka 18 int)

1st level - Mage Armor, Grease, Shield... Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant
2nd level - Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Web...Augury
3rd level - Dispel Magic, Fireball... Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing
4th level - Banishment, Evard's Black Tentacles

Prepared Spells (Regular Day)
1st level - Charm Person, Mage Armor, Grease... Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant
2nd level - Enhance Ability, Misty Step, Suggestion...Augury
3rd level - Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Patter, Speak with Dead... Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing
4th level - Arcane Eye, Fabricate

So before we debate spell lists today vs the next day etc, in terms of all the time things:
  • Has a familiar that can scout anything with 100 feet, and can be resummoned if killed (aka risk free to the party). Its tiny, and you can cast spells through it.
  • Your entire party has water breathing, all day every day.
  • Can at any point summon a servant to press a button, pull a lever, grab an object.....again risk free to the party.
  • Can speak to anyone regardless of language
  • Can prepare a nigh invincible fortress to rest in or to lay siege to an area (tiny hut).
  • Can determine the best directions to go in labyrinth areas (augury).

So that's before I've seen expended a spell slot. But I think far too many people get caught up in the "adventuring day balance". They will go "oh well the wizard has X slots and the fighter can swing his sword all day". But that's not where the real cinematic imbalance comes in, I mean sure the wizard can hold his own here, but its after the adventure where the wizard gets to really shine.
  • Has a lengthy conversation where he gets to role play with the dead.
  • Can have advantage on any roll he desires through enhance ability (this spell was not on the wizard spell list originally but has been added in from Tasha's and is considered standard on most SRD sites I see now).
  • Can use suggestions to start influencing the people around them.
  • Can scout an entire area, again with no risk to themselves.
  • Can fabricate all sorts of useful items and objects.
There is no fighter alive that has the versatility of a wizard, not during adventuring days, and certainly not even close when you consider non-adventuring days. Now the fighter is good and fun and a lot of people like it, but trying to argue they are equally good in social and exploration pillars.... I'm sorry but I have seen well played 5e wizards.... its not even close.
 

Stalker0

Legend
One gripe I had of 4e was that everyone had the same recharge type and the same amounts of powers. In theory, it gave players equity.
It also wasn't true in play. While on paper everyone had "equal power", in practice different classes had their strength in different areas.

For example, Wizard dailies in 4e are incredible, just encounter changing. When the wizard pulled out a daily, the fight was just fundamentally different. Fighters actually had very strong encounter powers, but weaker dailies over all. This isn't noted anywhere, but over years of 4e play I noticed it.
 

Xeviat

Community Supporter
Supporter
:blush: Apologies.

I'd vote for Long Rest. Having top-end spells refresh on a short rest would be a bit of an issue I think.
Also for all classes, having some "big guns" that you can pull out when you really have to is nice, whereas with all short rest abilities, you're using everything every few fights, reducing their impact and power level.
:censored:
Well, again, I should have said short rest like the warlock. Top end spells would still be long rest. I'm actually exploring restructuring the warlock to have the short rest slots grow in number faster but level slower (to half caster progression), but have them gain their long rest slots earlier. They'd end in the same spot at 17th, but have more slots to play with per short rest and have their higher slots be more limited.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Has a familiar that can scout anything with 100 feet, and can be resummoned if killed (aka risk free to the party). Its tiny, and you can cast spells through it.
Again, I ask, is this versatility or convenience? Its also not as infallible as it seems in practice. It feels like the familiar should be able to fly into the area, fly out, report and if they get killed, its spell slot free so summon another one. But that's not how that works in reality. Sure, at low levels against regular bandits and thugs, a bird flying through is a little suspicious but nothing too distracting. However, at levels above 3, enemies will either start being suspicious of animals just buzzing around or they're going to kill it for food. That, or traps could kill it.

No problem, summon them again, right? Well, it takes 1 hour and 10 minutes to resummon it as a ritual, making the process much slower and tedious than delving inside carefully. I'm going to make a butt out of you and me and assume you have spare charcoal on you as well. If not, sorry but I doubt the camps or dungeons will have a nearby charcoal vendor. And if those dungeons and camps have scouts, like any actually good dungeon/camp would have, they may run into your party and sound an alarm anyways.

Your entire party has water breathing, all day every day
Water breathing is still kinda niche. Especially for a wizard who could have taken a spell like Haste. Because while the party can now Water Breathe, the DM would need to make an area where water breathing would actually be useful.
Can at any point summon a servant to press a button, pull a lever, grab an object.....again risk free to the party.
This is...not how traps work. And not at all risk-free for the party. What if pulling the lever activates a gas trap? What if it shuts the door behind and releases a lion? What if it shoots darts/arrows? Spinning saws? Rolling Spheres? Collapsing Ceiling?

Unseen Servant is safer than the party barbarian pulling the levers, but its still safer to just Perceive and Investigate the trap first.

Can speak to anyone regardless of language
This is not what comprehend language does. Its one-way understanding. You understand them, they don't understand you.
Can prepare a nigh invincible fortress to rest in or to lay siege to an area (tiny hut)
Its convenient if you need to take a full rest in enemy grounds, but you're not proceeding through the dungeon and enemies could easily sound alarms and either flee with whatever you were trying to get from the dungeon or just bolster defenses all at once.

Is this going to happen all the time? No. But it only takes once before it becomes a serious setback.
Can determine the best directions to go in labyrinth areas (augury)
Not only is this not how augury works, it isn't on the wizard's spell list anyways. You get 1 guaranteed direction (not really, could be a nothing reading) and after 3, you're guaranteed a dud.
Has a lengthy conversation where he gets to role play with the dead.
Wizards don't have Speak with Dead. If they did, unless its a very important corpse, there's nothing inherently important it can tell you that a living person can't. If its an important corpse, you'd need a good reason to be within 10ft of it.

The corpse also isn't compelled to be truthful or direct.
Can have advantage on any roll he desires through enhance ability (this spell was not on the wizard spell list originally but has been added in from Tasha's and is considered standard on most SRD sites I see now).
Ahhh, I see now. I generally don't consider Optional Rules since they absolutely have the ability to be overtuned in certain directions. Well, then. Everything else still kinda applies except for the "not on the list" callouts.

As for Enhance Ability, it isn't any roll, its any ability check and its really only advantage which isn't as good as just having either expertise OR being skilled with a high mod. The Rogue is much better off persuading with his +13 Persuasion than your +6 with Advantage. Its also just an ability check, its not some groundbreaking ability that changes the fundamentals of the game.
Can use suggestions to start influencing the people around them.
Hope they don't just randomly save or else they might think you were trying to charm them or magically harm them.
Can scout an entire area, again with no risk to themselves.
I'm not entirely sure you understand how risk works...but there is indeed risk associated.
Can fabricate all sorts of useful items and objects
Yeah, just like anyone else. Crafting exists for everyone, they just use a 4th level spell to do it faster (if not possibly cruder based off of the materials).

Again, this versatility seems more like convenience to me. Nothing really show-stopping about this spell selection. Anything the Wizard is doing...the party can do better.
 

Xeviat

Community Supporter
Supporter
It also wasn't true in play. While on paper everyone had "equal power", in practice different classes had their strength in different areas.

For example, Wizard dailies in 4e are incredible, just encounter changing. When the wizard pulled out a daily, the fight was just fundamentally different. Fighters actually had very strong encounter powers, but weaker dailies over all. This isn't noted anywhere, but over years of 4e play I noticed it.
Again, this comes down to presentation.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
You've made alot of incomplete assessments here. You really seem to be digging in hard to assume the caster is using these abilities in unreasonable ways to bolster the argument that they add no value.

Again, I ask, is this versatility or convenience? Its also not as infallible as it seems in practice. It feels like the familiar should be able to fly into the area, fly out, report and if they get killed, its spell slot free so summon another one. But that's not how that works in reality. Sure, at low levels against regular bandits and thugs, a bird flying through is a little suspicious but nothing too distracting. However, at levels above 3, enemies will either start being suspicious of animals just buzzing around or they're going to kill it for food. That, or traps could kill it.

No problem, summon them again, right? Well, it takes 1 hour and 10 minutes to resummon it as a ritual, making the process much slower and tedious than delving inside carefully. I'm going to make a butt out of you and me and assume you have spare charcoal on you as well. If not, sorry but I doubt the camps or dungeons will have a nearby charcoal vendor. And if those dungeons and camps have scouts, like any actually good dungeon/camp would have, they may run into your party and sound an alarm anyways.
I think you are missing the biggest point here. The familiar provides a unique method of scouting ahead. It doesn't have to be full proof to provide benefit. It doesn't always have to be better than the rogue scouting ahead - you don't have to use it when there's a better option - or you can use it along with the better option for redundancy.

Water breathing is still kinda niche. Especially for a wizard who could have taken a spell like Haste. Because while the party can now Water Breathe, the DM would need to make an area where water breathing would actually be useful.
Agreed. Of course it also prevents drowning deaths. And swimming with heavy armor on might be determined impossible. It's a good insurance plan - even if the situation rarely arises.

This is...not how traps work. And not at all risk-free for the party. What if pulling the lever activates a gas trap? What if it shuts the door behind and releases a lion? What if it shoots darts/arrows? Spinning saws? Rolling Spheres? Collapsing Ceiling?

Unseen Servant is safer than the party barbarian pulling the levers, but its still safer to just Perceive and Investigate the trap first.
Of course you perceive and investigate first. It's only at the point where you've decided someone needs to push the level where the servant comes in. Sure it's not full proof because as you noted there are numerous ways it can still go wrong but it doesn't have to be full proof to add value.

This is not what comprehend language does. Its one-way understanding. You understand them, they don't understand you.
Agreed. But if you need to convey some idea - it's 10 times easier to hand and head gesture and draw in the dirt with a stick to get them to understand your meaning when you can hear their reactions. Again, it's a value add even if not perfect.

Its convenient if you need to take a full rest in enemy grounds, but you're not proceeding through the dungeon and enemies could easily sound alarms and either flee with whatever you were trying to get from the dungeon or just bolster defenses all at once.
It's valuable for any time you are going to take a rest where you have a possibility of being ambushed. That's value that a non-caster simply cannot bring.

Is this going to happen all the time? No. But it only takes once before it becomes a serious setback.
And it would likely be a bigger setback if you didn't have the tiny hut.


Not only is this not how augury works, it isn't on the wizard's spell list anyways. You get 1 guaranteed direction (not really, could be a nothing reading) and after 3, you're guaranteed a dud.
I think it was added in tasha's. Anyways, it's alot better than having no information.

Wizards don't have Speak with Dead. If they did, unless its a very important corpse, there's nothing inherently important it can tell you that a living person can't. If its an important corpse, you'd need a good reason to be within 10ft of it.

The corpse also isn't compelled to be truthful or direct.
Ahhh, I see now. I generally don't consider Optional Rules since they absolutely have the ability to be overtuned in certain directions. Well, then. Everything else still kinda applies except for the "not on the list" callouts.
You assume the party will be able to find a living person and compel him to speak truthfully with no magic. That may not be possible in many circumstances. And it may take to long to be useful in others. Here again the caster is adding non-combat value.


As for Enhance Ability, it isn't any roll, its any ability check and its really only advantage which isn't as good as just having either expertise OR being skilled with a high mod. The Rogue is much better off persuading with his +13 Persuasion than your +6 with Advantage. Its also just an ability check, its not some groundbreaking ability that changes the fundamentals of the game.
Does expertise change the fundamentals of the game? Because I think you are setting a bit of a double standard there.


Hope they don't just randomly save or else they might think you were trying to charm them or magically harm them.
Agreed

I'm not entirely sure you understand how risk works...but there is indeed risk associated.
Sure, but there's also risks for not attempting this at all. Which carries the greater risk?

Yeah, just like anyone else. Crafting exists for everyone, they just use a 4th level spell to do it faster (if not possibly cruder based off of the materials).
That's going to vary by table as there's not much in the way of downtime rules for player crafting.

Again, this versatility seems more like convenience to me. Nothing really show-stopping about this spell selection. Anything the Wizard is doing...the party can do better.
That's because you keep arguing that the abilities are being used in dumb ways, and that there is always an alternative to accomplish the goal without the spell which really isn't the case. It's plausible there are sometimes alternative mundane ways, but other times there just isn't or time pressure precludes them.
 
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Asisreo

Patron Badass
I think you are missing the biggest point here. The familiar provides a unique method of scouting ahead.
Not really. Ranger's companions can do it as well and they do it unquestionably better.
doesn't always have to be better than the rogue scouting ahead - you don't have to use it when there's a better option - or you can use it along with the better option for redundancy.
Which is 100% fine, but that means it was a convenience, not a necessity in these cases. Which is the point. The player allocated resources for these conveniences, so they should be rewarded. But that doesn't mean the wizard has broken new ground and has somehow invalidated noncasters.
It's valuable for any time you are going to take a rest where you have a possibility of being ambushed. That's value that a non-caster simply cannot bring.
While I agree that it can come in handy at that time, a noncaster could simply bar the room. Naturally, it has to be a room where there's at least 11 minutes of breathing room anyways so prep time is pretty lenient. And yes, LTH is more resilient, but for a 3rd-level spells known competing for the likes of Haste, Counterspell, Fireball, and Hypnotic Pattern; it should be doing something better.
You assume the party will be able to find a living person and compel him to speak truthfully with no magic. That may not be possible in many circumstances. And it may take to long to be useful in others. Here again the caster is adding non-combat value.
I don't assume anything, really. I gave an example but research, lore checks, interrogations, and bribes are external means to get this information. It gives another source of info, true, but this information is as reliable as talking to someone nonmagically. It opens up witnesses, though U doubt an adventure would require a party to have this specific spell. So its a nice bonus, but unnecessary.
Does expertise change the fundamentals of the game? Because I think you are setting a bit of a double standard there.
It doesn't (imo, you could argue bounded accuracy but bleh). However, the point is that its supposed to be the Wizard gaining all of these external, unique benefits...but advantage on checks is something that 90% of scenarios can accomplish via the help action.
That's because you keep arguing that the abilities are being used in dumb ways, and that there is always an alternative to accomplish the goal without the spell which really isn't the case. It's plausible there are sometimes alternative mundane ways, but other times there just isn't or time pressure precludes them.
This isn't my point.

My point isn't that the abilities are useless or have no value, they better have at least some value or else they are just broken spells.

The point is that they add value in a safety-net sense, not as a necessity sense. Your campaign probably won't hinge on whether or not the wizard decided to take Find Familiar. Nor will your party be TPK'd if you didn't use Leomund's Tiny Hut.

That's my point: that the game isn't reliant on these spells for your campaign to succeed. Therefore these spells, while having value, are still merely conveniences and not necessities. Noncasters can succeed without the wizard or bard. Casters can succeed without the fighter or rogue. But having them together can create a more diversified party where each class can boost themselves off the conveniences of the other.

The casters don't need to wear themselves thin with defensive spells if the fighter can stay engaged. The noncasters don't have to take greater risks through detours if the wizard casts a handy spell.

And while you could try to argue that wizards provide more value through the exploration/social pillars, that isn't exactly how it works.

All the pillars are interconnected, there is no single pillar encounter because a failed social spell may invoke combat. A failed combat could take you to a dungeon. A failed exploration interaction could have you interrogated. Same even for successes in these encounters. You can't really predict whether having more HP would be useful against this Poison trap because you didn't see it coming.

Ultimately, value in one pillar is value in them all. How your party is composed will almost always determine what type of encounters you will try to lean towards. A very social party tries to be social throughout (not always possible). A very combatant party tries to fight their way through (not always probable). A very explorative party tries to examine their way out (not always plausible). Having someone with a big stick is useful in socials as a deterrent or insurance. Having someone with sturdy flesh is useful in explorations as a front rank or an examiner.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Alright, here is a 7th level wizard spell list. Go to work people!

In terms of bonus spells. I assumed a 7th level fighter would at least have access to plate armor and a greatsword in most games (1550 gp). If I give wizards 1 extra spellbook spell per level that 500 gp, so to keep things simple I gave them 3 additional spells of each level. That's technically a little less "equipment" than the fighter has, but close enough for a reasonable comparison (I will also throw in the 25 GP for the augury material component). Its much less than what is assumed in the standard treasure hordes (D&D 5E - Deconstructing 5e: Typical Wealth by Level), but we will assume the rest is magic items or other things.

Known Spells
1st level (11 spells known) - Charm Person, Comprehend Languages (R), Detect Magic (R), False Life, Find Familiar (R), Fog Cloud, Grease, Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, Unseen Servant (R)
2nd level (7 spells known) - Augury (R), Enhance Ability, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Scorching Ray, Suggestion, Web
3rd level (7 spells known) - Dispel Magic, Fireball, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Leomund's Tiny Hut (R), Speak with Dead, Water Breathing (R)
4th level (5 spells known) - Arcane Eye, Banishment, Evard's Black Tentacles, Fabricate, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere

Prepared Spells (Adventuring Day)
*Remember that Wizard's have automatic access to ritual spells. We will assume 11 spells prepared (aka 18 int)

1st level - Mage Armor, Grease, Shield... Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant
2nd level - Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Web...Augury
3rd level - Dispel Magic, Fireball... Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing
4th level - Banishment, Evard's Black Tentacles

Prepared Spells (Regular Day)
1st level - Charm Person, Mage Armor, Grease... Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant
2nd level - Enhance Ability, Misty Step, Suggestion...Augury
3rd level - Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Patter, Speak with Dead... Leomund's Tiny Hut, Water Breathing
4th level - Arcane Eye, Fabricate

So before we debate spell lists today vs the next day etc, in terms of all the time things:
  • Has a familiar that can scout anything with 100 feet, and can be resummoned if killed (aka risk free to the party). Its tiny, and you can cast spells through it.
  • Your entire party has water breathing, all day every day.
  • Can at any point summon a servant to press a button, pull a lever, grab an object.....again risk free to the party.
  • Can speak to anyone regardless of language
  • Can prepare a nigh invincible fortress to rest in or to lay siege to an area (tiny hut).
  • Can determine the best directions to go in labyrinth areas (augury).

So that's before I've seen expended a spell slot. But I think far too many people get caught up in the "adventuring day balance". They will go "oh well the wizard has X slots and the fighter can swing his sword all day". But that's not where the real cinematic imbalance comes in, I mean sure the wizard can hold his own here, but its after the adventure where the wizard gets to really shine.
  • Has a lengthy conversation where he gets to role play with the dead.
  • Can have advantage on any roll he desires through enhance ability (this spell was not on the wizard spell list originally but has been added in from Tasha's and is considered standard on most SRD sites I see now).
  • Can use suggestions to start influencing the people around them.
  • Can scout an entire area, again with no risk to themselves.
  • Can fabricate all sorts of useful items and objects.
There is no fighter alive that has the versatility of a wizard, not during adventuring days, and certainly not even close when you consider non-adventuring days. Now the fighter is good and fun and a lot of people like it, but trying to argue they are equally good in social and exploration pillars.... I'm sorry but I have seen well played 5e wizards.... its not even close.
People who have not played a wizard tend to ignore the way tiny hut actually works or their table does. Depending if ritual or 4rd level spell slot consuming it takes 1-10 minutes to cast. If your wizard is standing somewhere doing nothing but casting tiny uninterrupted hut for 10-100 rounds that kind of invalidates any kind of "lay siege" scenario as the first major hurdle. Second "Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it." Lets say the party is attacked during a rest to give this the maximum benefit of the doubt it can be any number of noncorporeal nonburrowing monsters of any CR, litera;;y the most effective thing the wizard can do is say "I'm going to run out & get pizza" because "The spell ends if you leave its area." GMs also tend to take a dim view of tiny hut abuse like you are suggesting.


You pin a lot of hope on speak with dead & it's probably great if nobody actually reads the spell. As a nonritual spell you will only be able to cast it after a long rest to prepare it or must run a truly unusual style of game if this is something needed on a regular basis. The spell itself works with this critical component
  • The corpse knows only what it knew in life, including the languages it knew.
  • Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive,
  • and the corpse is under no compulsion to offer a truthful answer if you are hostile to it or it recognizes you as an enemy. "
If the corpse knew something in life and it feels like being truthful it and it doesn't recognize you as an enemy it might choose to give you a brief cryptic answer & get repetitive if you start delving for clarity.


wrt the level 7 thing. You didn't mention the attributes other than 18 in & unless I overlooked then apparently forgot to include skills or decided to conceed that the wizard's 2 skills will not possibly provide any useful contribution?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Cutting through the fodder
The point is that they add value in a safety-net sense, not as a necessity sense. Your campaign probably won't hinge on whether or not the wizard decided to take Find Familiar. Nor will your party be TPK'd if you didn't use Leomund's Tiny Hut.

That's my point: that the game isn't reliant on these spells for your campaign to succeed. Therefore these spells, while having value, are still merely conveniences and not necessities. Noncasters can succeed without the wizard or bard. Casters can succeed without the fighter or rogue. But having them together can create a more diversified party where each class can boost themselves off the conveniences of the other.
I would say that by your definition nearly everything in the game is merely a 'convenience'. Which is fine, but that makes the designation rather non-meaningful.

I'm going to put it this way: A fighter with no weapon or armor could punch his way out of certain encounters. Therefore, a fighter having a weapon and armor is merely a convenience - merely a safety net. It's not necessary. But a fighter having a weapon and armor is going to make many encounters a heck of alot easier. The fighter having a weapon and armor is going to make some fights that were previously next to unwinnable very winnable. It's a similar space that a Wizard exists in for out of combat scenarios.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Cutting through the fodder

I would say that by your definition nearly everything in the game is merely a 'convenience'. Which is fine, but that makes the designation rather non-meaningful.


I'm going to put it this way: A fighter with no weapon or armor could punch his way out of certain encounters. Therefore, a fighter having a weapon and armor is merely a convenience - merely a safety net. It's not necessary. But a fighter having a weapon and armor is going to make many encounters a heck of alot easier. The fighter having a weapon and armor is going to make some fights that were previously next to unwinnable very winnable. It's a similar space that a Wizard exists in for out of combat scenarios.
Problem being that fighter brings dramatically more to the combat pillar where wizards are far behind on both at will as well as spike damage. Because og that gap wizard needs to make up for that somewhere else. Rogue also is dramatically more effective in damage dealing and is generally considered some range of solidly good to great when it comes to social & exploration pillars. The wizard having some niche spells that are "merely a convenience" in social & exploration pillars is leagues from making up for it somewhere else & in no way justifies the combined massive overcorrection targeting problems of old editions in weakened spells overused concentration overused magic resistance overused legendary resistance underused energy vulnerabilities & overused energy resist/immune.
 

loverdrive

Makin' cool stuff (She/Her)
Problem being that fighter brings dramatically more to the combat pillar where wizards are far behind on both at will as well as spike damage. Because og that gap wizard needs to make up for that somewhere else. Rogue also is dramatically more effective in damage dealing and is generally considered some range of solidly good to great when it comes to social & exploration pillars. The wizard having some niche spells that are "merely a convenience" in social & exploration pillars is leagues from making up for it somewhere else & in no way justifies the combined massive overcorrection targeting problems of old editions in weakened spells overused concentration overused magic resistance overused legendary resistance underused energy vulnerabilities & overused energy resist/immune.
Uhm, overused magic resistance? There is a handful of creatures in MM who have it, mostly daemons.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
I'm going to put it this way: A fighter with no weapon or armor could punch his way out of certain encounters. Therefore, a fighter having a weapon and armor is merely a convenience - merely a safety net.
I agree, though fighters can have ambiguous armor and weapons, meaning multiple styles are effective even though their safety nets are a different type. A fighter with a sword and shield has a more defensive net and with a greatsword has a more offensive net.

So while the nets are unique, that doesn't mean one is more valuable than another.

Another point about the fighter equipment analogy, the absence of fighter's equipment is like a D&D roleplay with the absence of classes altogether. So while a fighter is less effective without armor, so is a party without classes.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Uhm, overused magic resistance? There is a handful of creatures in MM who have it, mostly daemons.
  1. Deva
  2. Planetar
  3. Solar
  4. DeathKnight
  5. Balor
  6. Chasme
  7. glabrezu
  8. Goristro
  9. Hezrou
  10. Marilith
  11. Nalfeshnee
  12. Quasit
  13. Vrock
  14. Yochlol
  15. Barbed Devil
  16. Bearded Devil
  17. Bone Devil
  18. Chain Devil
  19. Erinyes
  20. Horned Devil
  21. Ice Devil
  22. Imp
  23. Pit fiend
  24. Spined Devil
  25. Dracolich
  26. Dryad
  27. Empyrean
  28. Faerie Dragon
  29. Flame Skull
  30. Clay Golem
  31. Flesh Golrm
  32. Iron Golem
  33. Stone Golem
  34. Night Hag
  35. Helmed Horror
  36. Mind Flayer
  37. Mummy Lord
  38. Pixie
  39. Pseudodragon
  40. satyr
  41. Blue Slaad
  42. Red Slaad
  43. Slaad Tadpole
  44. Green Slaad
  45. Gray Slaad
  46. Death Slaad
  47. Tarrasque
  48. Unicorn
  49. Yaun-Ti Abomination
  50. Yaun-ti malison
  51. Yaun-Ti Pureblood
  52. Arcanoloth
  53. Mezzloth
  54. Nycaloth
  55. Utroloth
  56. Archmage
That's quite the "handful" & a huge chunk of them also sport one or more energy resist/energy immune with a good number also having legendary resist... It's also not done.
  1. Ki-Rin
  2. Alhoon
  3. Mind Flaer Lich/Illithilich
  4. Elder Brain
  5. Ulitharid
  6. Neothelid
  7. Tanarukk
  8. Yaun-Ti Anathema
  9. Yaun-Ti Mind Whisperer
  10. Yaun-Ti Nightmare Speaker
  11. Yaun-Ti Pitmaster

  1. Cadaver Collector
  2. Bronze Scout
  3. Iron Cobra
  4. Oaken Bolter
  5. Stone Defender
  6. Alkilith
  7. Aramite
  8. Dybbuk
  9. Meurezhi
  10. Molydeus
  11. Nabassu
  12. Sibriex
  13. Wastrilith
  14. Baphomet
  15. Demogorgon
  16. Fraz-Urb'luu
  17. Graz'zt
  18. Juiblex
  19. Orcus
  20. Yeenoghu Zuggtmoy
  21. Derro
  22. Derro Savant
  23. Black Abishai
  24. Blue Abishai
  25. Red Abashi
  26. Green Abashi
  27. White Abashi
  28. Amnizu
  29. Hellfire Engine
  30. Merregon
  31. Narzugon
  32. Orthon
  33. Bael
  34. Geryon
  35. Hutijin
  36. Moloch
  37. Titvilus
  38. Zariel
  39. Drow Inquisitor
  40. Drow Matron Mother
  41. Duergar Despot
  42. Auumn Eladrin
  43. Spring Eladrin
  44. Summer Eladrin
  45. Winter Eladrin
  46. Marut
  47. Soul Monger
  48. Steel Predator
  49. Canoloth
  50. Dhergoloth
  51. Merrenoloth
  52. Oinoloth
  53. Yagnoloth

  1. Bsttleforce Angel
  2. Firemane Angel
  3. Deathpact Angel
  4. Conclave Dryad
  5. Master of Cruelties
  6. Sire of insanity
  7. Nivix Cyclops
  8. Undercity Medusa
  9. Isperia
  10. Aurelia
  11. Jarad Vod Savo
  12. Niv Mizzet
  13. Rakdos
  14. Trostani
  15. Zegana
  16. Biomancer
  1. Archon of falling stars
  2. Abhorrent Overlord'
  3. Eater of Hope
  4. Nightmare Shepherd
  5. Doomwake Giant
  6. Aphemia
  7. Byx-Fleece Ram
  8. Alseid
  9. Lampad
  10. Naiad
  11. Oread
  12. Satyr Reveler
  13. Satyr Thornbearer
  14. Arasta


  1. Warforged Colossus
  2. Undying Councilor
  3. Radiant Idol
  4. Kalaraq Quori
  5. Rak Tulkhesh
  6. Living Cloukill
  7. Living Lightning Bolt
  8. Living Burning Hands
  9. Lady Illmarrow
  10. Dusk Hag
  11. Dyrrn
  12. Belashyrra

  1. Auril 1st form
  2. Auril 2nd Form
  3. Auril 3rd form
  4. Brain in a jar
  5. Chardalyn Dragon
  6. Living Bigsby's hand
  7. Living Blade of Disaster
  8. Living Demplane
  9. Demos Magen
  10. Galvan Magen
  11. Hypnos Magen
  12. Spitting Mimic
  13. Gnome Ceremorph
  14. Gnome Squidling
  1. Amnizu
  2. Baphomet
  3. Grokek'Toreck
  4. Death's Head of Bhaal
  5. Fiendish Flesh Golem
  6. Merregon
  7. Narzugon
  8. White AbishaiYeenoghu
  9. Archduke Zariel of Avernus
  10. Kostchtchie
  11. Bel
  12. Sibriex
  13. Smiler the Defiler
  14. Plus a ton of stuff listed in the above spoilers just without a reprinted/updated statblock

I could continue but even accounting for a couple duplications across books this "handful" is up to 190, most of them feature some combination of energy resist energy immune and/or legendary resist. If concentration was not overused to thwart the problems of buff/debuff stacking in old editions, spell effectiveness were not reduced to thwart the problems of past editions, spell scaling were not made something done at cost to thwart the problems of past editions having all of these monsters built to thwart the problems of past editions might make sense... but all of those things were done to combine into a massive overcorrection. This combined overcorrection adds to the oomph that needs to be found somewhere else to justify the damage disparity with fighter & rogue.

Even if we are talking grains of rice 190 is a pretty big "handful" & this list would only grow if I kept going back through earlier hardcover adventures.
 

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