D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

Well ideally the Hand would try to pull a dragon into range of a ground-based PC who can take over the grapple before it's killed. Or a Sentinel user.

Oh... I had actually forgotten the fact that grappling a flying creature reduces its speed to zero and therefore causes it to fall. +1 on this idea.

Current best suggestion for Celtavian's party seems to be:

Hex the dragon if possible so it gets disadvantage on Str checks.
Cast Bigby's (Forceful) Hand to grapple the dragon. Bard uses Cutting Words to penalize the dragon's roll (requires bard to be within 60 feet).
Dragon (hopefully) crashes to the ground, taking falling damage.
Sentinel melee guy locks it down (seems doubtful to me--won't the dragon just use its legendary action to get away anyway?) or melee dudes climb aboard the dragon, clinging to its wings/etc. as outlined in the DMG combat options.
Wizard either maintains Bigby's Hand or else switches to Phantasmal Force (dragons's Int save is -1 so pretty much guaranteed to auto-fail/burn Legendary Resistance) or something.

 

[KarinsDad]

People seem to be missing the point here. The issue is not that the melee specialists cannot typically use long ranged weapons, it's that the party is fighting a dragon out in the open. That's the main problem with the scenario. If possible, head inside a castle or dungeon or set of caves (or even a sturdy building if fighting a white dragon that typically cannot set it on fire) or whatever to balance out the environment. Then from there, come out, fire ranged weapons / spells, retreat back in. If the dragon comes in too close to use its breath weapon, then it should be close enough for buffed minor str based ranged weapons like thrown hand axes by the melee specialists (possibly even ones that are readied attacks).

The concept that only spells and abilities can defeat a foe is invalid. PCs should try to outsmart the dragon (use illusions and other lures to get it to fight in disadvantageous situations).

Sure, this might not always be possible, but fighting a dragon out in the open seems like a subpar strategy.

 

[Eejit]

I was confused by you rating Bigby's by it's damage, that spell is more about in combat utility.

 

[sithramir]

I love my paladin but it sure is annoying that there isn't a great ranged option. Picking a longbow where you have +2 or 3 against a dragon with 18 AC isn't really smart. Better than nothing but ruins the fun of classes built for stength

 

[Eejit]

What you need is for the party to collectively try to break Legendary Resistance ASAP, then a Paladin can compel duel ;-)

 

[Celtavian]

People seem to be missing the point here. The issue is not that the melee specialists cannot typically use long ranged weapons, it's that the party is fighting a dragon out in the open. That's the main problem with the scenario. If possible, head inside a castle or dungeon or set of caves (or even a sturdy building if fighting a white dragon that typically cannot set it on fire) or whatever to balance out the environment. Then from there, come out, fire ranged weapons / spells, retreat back in. If the dragon comes in too close to use its breath weapon, then it should be close enough for buffed minor str based ranged weapons like thrown hand axes by the melee specialists (possibly even ones that are readied attacks).

The concept that only spells and abilities can defeat a foe is invalid. PCs should try to outsmart the dragon (use illusions and other lures to get it to fight in disadvantageous situations).

Sure, this might not always be possible, but fighting a dragon out in the open seems like a subpar strategy.

A dragon has no incentive whatsoever to fight outside its lair. We tried to draw it outside its lair. We tried to scout it for when it goes hunting. It moves so fast, we had no way to keep up with it to follow it. There is no long-term flight options now unless you're a druid. We don't have a druid. Even if the druid follows it, no one else can keep up. If you were to cast a wall spell to seal it off from re-entering its lair, once again concentration.

With everything so limited, you don't have very good options for accomplishing things like drawing a dragon out of its lair. Spell durations are low now. Movement is slower, especially for groups. You have to be careful casting spells too soon when moving in a dragon's lair. What if you cast fly and then it takes over a minute to find the dragon? There are all kinds of logistical problems that did no exist in previous editions because of the severely limited options with magic now. I imagine that was intentional. It worked.

You get to save against illusions. The dragon has Blindsight. Generally, illusions not so effective against dragons and creatures with Blindsight or Truesight.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Maybe if the martials find a magic item that lets them fly at full speed, things will change.

BTW, Winged Boots are more common than Wands of the War Mage, for whatever that's worth. If you manage to find the formula you can potentially even crank out a pair of Winged Boots every three weeks for 500 gold. (Winged Boots are Uncommon, so the formula is Rare, if your DM allows the optional crafting rules.) Check with your DM to see if he thinks it might be feasible to find the formula somewhere, maybe among your new Arcane Brotherhood allies.

 

[Celtavian]

BTW, Winged Boots are more common than Wands of the War Mage, for whatever that's worth. If you manage to find the formula you can potentially even crank out a pair of Winged Boots every three weeks for 500 gold. (Winged Boots are Uncommon, so the formula is Rare, if your DM allows the optional crafting rules.) Check with your DM to see if he thinks it might be feasible to find the formula somewhere, maybe among your new Arcane Brotherhood allies.

Oh, optional rule. We're not using those yet.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

A dragon has no incentive whatsoever to fight outside its lair. We tried to draw it outside its lair. We tried to scout it for when it goes hunting. It moves so fast, we had no way to keep up with it to follow it. There is no long-term flight options now unless you're a druid. We don't have a druid. Even if the druid follows it, no one else can keep up. If you were to cast a wall spell to seal it off from re-entering its lair, once again concentration.

Depends on the wall. Wall of Stone becomes permanent after 10 minutes.

You get to save against illusions. The dragon has Blindsight. Generally, illusions not so effective against dragons and creatures with Blindsight or Truesight.

Many illusions do not grant saves--Minor Illusion and Major Image, for example, require a specific action to examine them, and it grants an Investigation check and not a save. (White dragons are pretty much guaranteed to fail that check.) Even illusions like Phantasmal Force essentially force the dragon to burn a Legendary Resist to break the spell because its Int saves are so very, very bad.

Also, Blindsight doesn't help against illusions. You may be thinking of Truesight, which dragons don't have. According to the MM page 9, truesight does allow you to automatically detect illusions and automatically succeed on saves against them.

 

[Celtavian]

The problem with Bigby's Hand is that it is outclassed by the competition. Conjure Minor Elemental is cheaper and longer-lasting, and (assuming 8 mud mephits) gives you roughly 3 to 4 times the HP and more damage (8d6 + 8 at +3 instead of 4d8 at +7-ish; expected damage of 8 mud mephits against an AC of 18 like an Adult White Dragon is 10.8 vs. only 9 for Bigby's Hand, and it only gets better for more typical ACs or if someone lands a Faerie Fire/Web on the dragon) plus a better action economy and some death burst effects/breath weapons (useless against dragons but useful against other things).

Without the house rule in place, you would just cast Conjure Minor Elementals when you first enter Oyavigatton (sp? the white dragon lair), thus making the whole dungeon easier including fights with trolls/frogs/etc., and also use them to fight the dragon, instead of just getting 1 minute worth of Bigby's Hand during the fight. You can even use the mephits to scout ahead. It's a dominant option without the house rule.

One breath weapon or lair or legendary action kill all the mephitis. What keeps them alive with the Lair Actions and Legendary Actions? White dragon lair action 3d6 damage to up to three targets per round. Breath weapon cone hit them all. I guess it would use actions it normally spent on destroying party. I doubt the mephitis last very long. Mud Mephit burst only works against medium or smaller creatures. Dragon wouldn't even notice.

I've calculated using mephitis. I don't see an advantage. Dragon kill them quick and easy. Do I want to try to maintain concentration for a spell that may last a few rounds and limit me from getting the martials into combat? I doubt it.