D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Celtavian]

Does it? The spell does not mention a Str check. If you create an illusion of a wooden wall over a doorway and an Ogre tries to ram that wooden wall in an attempt to break it, the Ogre would just go through the doorway because the wall isn't there. Granted, a given DM might still make this an Intelligence check action and if the Ogre makes it, the spell ends, and if the Ogre does not make it, he thinks that the wooden wall moved out of his way when he rushed it and then moved back, but it wouldn't require a Str check. Just like the Ogre would fall through the bridge that is not actually there no check required, the Ogre would move through the wall that is not actually there no check required.

Str checks are not part of the spell. Trying to break through the illusion works every time. The illusion is not actually there.

Yes. Phantasmal Force says it treats the effect as though it is real. One example given is it thinks it is the type of damage you make it seem like. So if you were to create a fire effect using phantasmal force on a red dragon, it would take no damage because it knows it is immune to fire.

If you create a restraining effect and it misses its intelligence save, it would think its wings were restrained. It would try to use its strength to break out, since that is how it normally reacts to a restraining effect.

Illusion spells by their nature cannot cover every type of effect. The spell interpretation is clear that it treats the phantasmal effect as though it were real justifying everything it does. It may have to make a strength check every round, but it would still get one. It would make it seem as though the chains were still on its wings. Nowhere does it say in the phantasmal effect you get to automatically restrain things, take away its abilities automatically, or anything of the kind. That would make phantasmal force more powerful than 9th level spells. It don't work like that. It creates an effect that causes the creature to interact with it in an appropriate fashion if it misses its intelligence save.

 

[Celtavian]

It is not at all clear that str checks automatically succeed. The sensations of the spell persist - so a dragon would still feel like it is entangled. The ogre would still feel that the wall was there and still find some way to rationalize its continued presence.

This is all beside the point, however. The POINT of using the spell in this manner is that once the Dragon makes a strength check to get out of the webbing or once the ogre tries to ram the wall they have used up their action for the turn. The dragon can't breathe or attack outside of lair/legendary actions as normal that round. The ogre can't smash someone's face. You use the spell for action denial, not the piddly 1d6 damage.

If I have an available concentration slot, I might give this a shot. We will see how things set up the next dragon I fight. In general, the thing swoops in and hammers. If it has to spend on use of Legendary Resistance to shrug off phantasmal force, it will. The hammer will still fall. I'll still have to cast fly to get the martials going and protective spells to keep myself from getting destroyed by the breath weapon.

It's not as easy as casting phantasmal force to burn one Legendary Resistance. It also denies your action. You can't spend your action doing something else that would probably help the party more. A dragon can burn down a 100 plus hit points very easily in a round or two. There's isn't much latitude to spend time burning through Legendary Resistance.

I will give it a shot just to test things, if I'm able. I'm still working on refining strategy fighting dragons. Last fight we cast fly early and my concentration slot was done. We used the martials to pull the dragon to us. That seemed to work better than previous fights. We might stick that strategy.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

It's not as easy as casting phantasmal force to burn one Legendary Resistance. It also denies your action. You can't spend your action doing something else that would probably help the party more. A dragon can burn down a 100 plus hit points very easily in a round or two. There's isn't much latitude to spend time burning through Legendary Resistance.

I will give it a shot just to test things, if I'm able. I'm still working on refining strategy fighting dragons. Last fight we cast fly early and my concentration slot was done. We used the martials to pull the dragon to us. That seemed to work better than previous fights. We might stick that strategy.

Yeah...on that subject, I don't personally recommend trying to burn through a legendary creature's legendary resistance... or at least using save for nothing spells against a legendary creature. Maybe it would work if you've got a party who can force a lot of saves. Or can summon swarms of things that can force saves. (8 mephits can breathe....but the save DCs are low enough that only one or MAYBE two are likely to be failed by a dragon).

 

[aramis erak]

Anyone telling you it is easy to burn through Legendary Resistance, hasn't fought many creatures with Legendary Resistance.

So far my experience has been that Legendary Creatures have high saves to begin with. Not only do they get to automatically save against a spell that manages to get through, they often save against your spells without having to use any Legendary Resistance. I'm in a party with a bard. We tried to land some low level spells on the dragon to burn its Legendary Resistance, it saved against the spells. We took off one Legendary Resistance in six rounds of combat. We wasted five or six precious spell slots to do it. You don't have of low level spell slots. No idea why anyone is telling you that we do.

You get 4 first level spells, 3 second, 3 third. That is ten spell slots. You do not burn through legendary resistance. Those low level slots also have to be used on defense like shield, mirror image, or other defensive or utility spells. So don't let anyone tell you burning low level spell slots to try to get past legendary resistance works. It doesn't. You have other spells you need to preserve low level spell slots for. You can't burn them all and hope to stay effective. You're asking to die and not be able to help the party that way. Your best bet is to buff the martials and let them do the damage while launching cantrips.


That's why I'm not going to lie to you and tell you the wizard isn't effective. The wizard is effective and helpful to the party. If you don't mind playing a cantrip launching buff bot wizard, you'll be fine. It's a boring play-style to me. I like to do something offensive along with helping the martials that doesn't consist of endlessly firing off a cantrip because wasting a slot on a direct damage spell that won't do much more damage is a very bad use of limited spell slots.

I picked a cleric thinking I'd be a buff-bot, rezzing fallen warriors†, and generally being a back ranker...

... Instead, I'm dropping inflicts as often as heals. 3d10 and 4d10 necrotic are pretty damned effective. Brutal, even. Followed by the save-or-suck Sacred Flame. Front rank... right next to the paladin. And using my crossbow until they hit range.

This ain't old-school D&D. But it's fun. And I've yet to cast a buff...


† Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yeah...on that subject, I don't personally recommend trying to burn through a legendary creature's legendary resistance... or at least using save for nothing spells against a legendary creature. Maybe it would work if you've got a party who can force a lot of saves. Or can summon swarms of things that can force saves. (8 mephits can breathe....but the save DCs are low enough that only one or MAYBE two are likely to be failed by a dragon).

Agreed. I don't know of anybody in this thread who's been actively suggesting that burning through resistance is the way to go--I've only seen people pushing back against the repeated, adamant claim that you can't do it because their saves are too high. The problem isn't infeasibility, it's opportunity cost--you might as well just kill the thing instead.

Unless your DM allows Conjure Fey Pixie cheese... 8x Polymorph-into-newt should work.

 

[KarinsDad]

With your interpretation of how the spell works, I am having a really tough time seeing why anyone would ever use it. When a creature sees something scary around it, most targets will immediately move away from it, with a total net impact of doing 1d6 damage and forcing a creature to move 15'.

I do understand this POV.

My interpretation does limit the illusion to one location, just like other low level illusions Minor Illusion and Major Illusion. Major Illusion does not move unless the caster burns actions. It is a third level spell and still does not auto-follow enemies. And that's how low level illusions should work. They should be for holding a doorway with an illusionary creature or covering the fighter's flank with a pool of acid, not for taking away multiple actions from a high level dragon, just because the spell targets intelligence instead of wisdom.

Interestingly enough, people are willing to have spells nerfed with saves every round, concentration limiting some spells from even being cast, and concentration allowing spells to easily be auto-dispelled, but they expect that illusion spells should be able to do anything they can imagine. I find that a bit odd that people want low level illusions do almost anything with few limits. If Phantasmal Force had a save every round like many spells, then yes, I would think that it could be mobile and used to distract a dragon. But as written, forcing a dragon to use up an action to get the equivalent of a save versus a second level spell is overpowered compared to every other second level spell in the book.

Personally, I think that Phantasmal Force is already extremely powerful because it does not allow a save every round, and it does not allow a save when the illusion does something that is nonsensical. In the right circumstances, it can create a fake creature to hold a doorway against a giant and have the giant waste several rounds trying to kill it. It can also be used out of combat for a lot of things.

But having it distract a dragon without a save every round? I do not think that is the designer's intent. I could be wrong. Mearls could tweet tomorrow that the illusion of a flying anvil smacking the dragon in the head every round is the intent of the spell.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes. Phantasmal Force says it treats the effect as though it is real. One example given is it thinks it is the type of damage you make it seem like. So if you were to create a fire effect using phantasmal force on a red dragon, it would take no damage because it knows it is immune to fire.

If you create a restraining effect and it misses its intelligence save, it would think its wings were restrained. It would try to use its strength to break out, since that is how it normally reacts to a restraining effect.

Illusion spells by their nature cannot cover every type of effect. The spell interpretation is clear that it treats the phantasmal effect as though it were real justifying everything it does. It may have to make a strength check every round, but it would still get one. It would make it seem as though the chains were still on its wings. Nowhere does it say in the phantasmal effect you get to automatically restrain things, take away its abilities automatically, or anything of the kind. That would make phantasmal force more powerful than 9th level spells. It don't work like that. It creates an effect that causes the creature to interact with it in an appropriate fashion if it misses its intelligence save.

And that interaction gives the creature an intelligence check, not a strength check. The creature might be using its strength to try to break out of the chains, but the check is an intelligence check that the chains are not holding it like real chains would. There is absolutely no reason to waste time at the gaming table giving the creature a strength check that is worthless and not applicable to the game or the spell.

The spell has saves and checks as it states that it does, not additional ones.

 

[KarinsDad]

I picked a cleric thinking I'd be a buff-bot, rezzing fallen warriors†, and generally being a back ranker...

... Instead, I'm dropping inflicts as often as heals. 3d10 and 4d10 necrotic are pretty damned effective. Brutal, even. Followed by the save-or-suck Sacred Flame. Front rank... right next to the paladin. And using my crossbow until they hit range.

This ain't old-school D&D. But it's fun. And I've yet to cast a buff...


† Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues

Our Cleric is 16 Str, 14 Wis, so her two handed weapon does some serious damage without casting a spell. Although she has prepped Inflict Wounds a few times, I do not recall her ever using it (although she might have once). I'm waiting for the day (and will probably suggest to her in an Email) for her to learn that the hard smackdown, even if it uses up a spell slot, will save at least an equivalent amount of healing for the same spell slot, especially against tough foes.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Anyone think that 90% of the complaints in this thread would go away if we just dropped legendary resistance from three auto-saves to one? Because I'm thinking of doing just that.

 

[EthanSental]

In original Basic D&D and AD&D it was a significant challenge to roleplay a wizard from first level. You might have a grand total of two hit points, and a one-shot magic missile, and spend the rest of the time figuring out how not to get hit. You would benefit your party in ways that weren't about combat, with guile and intelligent thinking. That was the challenge: be smart, and survive. By mid-level, this didn't change much and you often were more about buffing or enhancing others than excelling in combat. At high levels, you outshined everyone with spells of mass destruction, but also enhancement and utility.

People today think more about every character and every class needing to be balanced and equally valuable in combat. But back in the day it was more about the party and not the individual. Your party ensured your survival now, and later you'd have exactly the right spells for numerous situations. You were no less and no more valuable than the rogue who detected traps, set them, or undid them. You were no more or less valuable than the cleric who healed everyone, soaked damage, and provided inspiration. You were no more or less valuable than the fighter who took most of the damage and gave the others time and thought to use their own abilities wisely. As a party you were not "equals" but all very uniquely valuable to your team. In the era of balance and equal combat utility, those things are largely gone.

Mages are meant to be more fragile IMO. The party is meant to be a team working together, not just a bunch of people who group together.

Well said, I guess political correctness and game balance took over much like in our current society, where people think things should be all rosy and balanced amongst everyone, even in a game of imagination. I like 5e cause it reminds me on the earlier editions where my imagination soars. People braking out calculators in this thread remind me of WoW and the character optimization of 3.5/pathfinder. It might be their cup of tie to play like that but not mine.