Low Magic Campaigns?

[Remathilis]

It's always amazing to me that any discussion on low magic gaming somehow seems to turn into a fairly angry, rancorous discussion. {snip} I mean, seriously--I don't get it.

When you begin one these threads (usually beginning with I hate d20 power creep, I want low-magic) you almost instinctively begin by criticizing the other sides playing style. Even though jbuck didn't start by saying he disliked High Magic, it didn't take long for someone to come in and begin beating the "d20 wealth/magic is bad" drum and causing all the typicals to come out and assume trench warfare.

These threads start out well, then the noise:signal ratio gets caught up in someone wanting to show his campaign/house rules is superior to R.A.W. or (heaven forbid) someone else.

I have nothing against a LM game, but I much prefer RAW with all the trimmings. (which is why I run an Eberron game).

 

[Ebony]

Ah yes, the "Start the game naked and unarmed in prison" trick. A true classic. I don't recommend using it too often, though. That one gets old real fast.

You guys seemed to enjoy it.

Of course the "diseased sewer you are forced to crawl in to escape, rolling FORT saves all the way" was an added bonus...

 

[Celebrim]

In my experience, that's like saying 25% of pornography users are first and foremost trying to get off...

To which I can only respond, my experience of gaming does not correspond to yours. I can only speak for yourself. If everyone you game with is first and foremost having a power fantasy, then my experience probably sounds pretty ridiculous to you. I've listed some commonly recognized gaming styles and pointed out how none of them were necessarily attracted to the game because of vicarious character power, and in fact how many of them might see such character ability as getting in the way of what they really wanted. I think that this ought to be obvious without lengthy explanations, because otherwise you'd have to believe that all players would refuse to play low power/low magic/grim and gritty games.

Not that there's anything wrong with a desire to indulge ones power-fantasies under the framework of an RPG...

I don't think I said that there was. But I've had alot of bad experiences with those whose sole or primary purpose in gaming was to endulge a power fantasy. To extend your analogy, I consider the claim that all or at least an overwhelmingly high percentage of gamers are primarily motivated by the desire to endulge a power fantasy, to be more akin to saying that all people have a paraphilia. But, can we maybe move on from that sort of analogy. I think we are making Eric's Grandma uncomfortable.

Even little Frodo Baggins fits the bill, with his amazing, Ring-defying hyper-humility

When you find someone whose primarily motivated by power tripping whose idea of a power trip is creating an exceptionally humble character, let me know.

 

[Ebony]

I've had alot of bad experiences with those whose sole or primary purpose in gaming was to endulge a power fantasy.

I'm sure we can debate the definition of "High Fantasy" ad nauseum, so I'm gonna just quote from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy

When one is roleplaying in high fantasy, one must necessarily come in conflict with great powers. It's all about saving the world (or destroying it, in the sub sub genre of "evil campaigns").

Another aspect with which we are all familiar is the growth of the hero from a person with potential to a person who reaches that potential.

Also iconic is the group of friends with which they surround themselves and share their adventures.

A person who wishes to attenuate their own existence (personality, history, experience) for a time in favor of roleplaying that of a fantastical character (of whatever genre), is indulging in a fantasy.

As many of us have seen, there are those who prefer a self-depricating fantasy. They prefer to play out being abused and tortured, even raped. They enjoy the loss of control. They enjoy the lack of responsibility.

But these are not the people we are discussing.

We are discussing those who play Dungeons and Dragons, a high fantasy game I have played for decades. Standard D&D is played in a high-magic universe, where everyone has access to magic of various types.

If one wished to reduce the amount of magic (or other resources) available to the characters, one would have to adjust the challenges they might face or run the risk of an unsatisfactory game for all involved.

I would hope that a person who would be running such a game would have the foresight and courtesy to involve the players in the decisions made that would make such a game different from their usual expectations. In that way, both the GM and the players who are, after all, playing the game TOGETHER, could have a satisfying and pleasurable fantasy experience, even in a low magic environment like we see in Tolkein or Howard.

In those genres, magic is rare, used only by epic characters, and can be extremely corrupting and dangerous.

But nonetheless expremely enjoyable.

Except, in the case of Tolkein, perhaps, the atrocious poetry and love of deus es machina endings.

 

[Raven Crowking]

We are discussing those who play Dungeons and Dragons, a high fantasy game I have played for decades. Standard D&D is played in a high-magic universe, where everyone has access to magic of various types.

I think if we began pulling quotes from the 1e and 2e books, including the High Level Handbook, we could quite easily demonstrate that "standard D&D" has changed quite a bit. In fact, there is a bit I was reading the other night (and I'll relocate it and quote it if need be) that describes what sounds awefully similar to 3.X as being beyond the normal scope of D&D campaigns.

1e and 2e were designed to play both high- and low-magic fantasy. 2e explicitly came out with sourcebooks to do so (specifically, most of the Historical sourcebooks are low-magic fantasy) and explicitly discussed low magic as a viable option using the ruleset.

1e and 2e defaulted to, for want of a better term, "Mid-Magic" games, somewhere between a low magic and a high magic world.

There is absolutely no reason one cannot run 3.X as a low, high, or mid-level magic game.


RC

 

[Brother MacLaren]

1e and 2e were designed to play both high- and low-magic fantasy. 2e explicitly came out with sourcebooks to do so (specifically, most of the Historical sourcebooks are low-magic fantasy) and explicitly discussed low magic as a viable option using the ruleset.

I've been considering something for the next time I want to run a low-magic game: keeping most of the rules as they are, but introducing a limit on the number of casters of any given level -- like druids used to have in 1e (also wizards in Dragonlance? not sure). This would introduce all kinds of storyline possibilities, intra-party drama, political maneuverings, and so on.

 

[Ebony]

There is absolutely no reason one cannot run 3.X as a low, high, or mid-level magic game.

And therefore...

 

[gizmo33]

If one wished to reduce the amount of magic (or other resources) available to the characters, one would have to adjust the challenges they might face or run the risk of an unsatisfactory game for all involved.

Really?!
Insult removed.

I bet you if you increased the amount of magic available to characters, you'd....(drum roll)....have to increase the challenges as well! I think I get how this works.

I really don't know what the issue is except that you guys like magic items and feel entitled to them. Plus you're also concerned about girls that play elves, and whether or not Tolkien writes good poetry. And 1st level characters saving the world have always been part of DnD, or something like that.

All in all, this thread is teaching me that I better figure out a way to run a "pink-eye" campaign so I don't have to deal with players like this. Fortunately, even the power-gamers in my group at least understand that the guidelines in the DMG are none of their business. That's why it's in the DMG.

Gizmo, don't insult people, please. I've removed it. For that matter, making rude generalizations ("you guys like magic items and feel entitled to them" ) isn't okay, either.

It may be worth re-reading the rules at the top of the forum, because taking jabs at people isn't something that we want to tolerate. If you're going to post here, please be civil.

 

[Raven Crowking]

And therefore...

Run whatever the hell you want to run.

 

[Ebony]

Hey, kids! Violating the rules and being continuously insulting gets you suspended AND your posts erased!

~ Piratecat