[LPF] Bats in the Belfry

[GlassEye]

As the Red Bill Tengu flees 'cross precarious rooftops those below (and the eidolons) have a choice to make: do they pursue the villain? The night is black and the dark-feathered bandit will soon be lost in shadows...

[sblock=OOC]I think we can break from initiative order until the characters make a decision concerning their course of action. And don't feel constrained to following any one particular path.

Safe trip, Otakkun![/sblock]

 

[Aldern Foxglove]

Aressa and Izzik begin persueing the Tengu. Izzik staying on the ground and trying follow along as closely as possible. Aressa bounding over the rooftops seeking to use her superior speed to get to grips with her feathery foe.

 

[udalrich]

Syldar starts running off after the Tengu. "Catch him and find out what is going on here!" Before running off, she speaks a few arcane words, "Clúdaithe i ramhar", then dashes off.

[sblock="Actions"]If she can see the Tengu, she casts Grease under him. Reflex save DC 13 or fall prone. She's hoping he also slides off the roof. If she can't see him, she'll cast Dancing Lights and move them to where she thinks he should be.

[sblock="Grease"]Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.[/sblock]

Then she takes a move in the direction of the Tengu.

Bardic performance is not maintained.
[/sblock]

 

[GlassEye]

The Tengu moves as if born to the rooftops easily navigating a steep roofline and loose tiles. Aressa will have to really push herself to keep pace with the bandit but as she goes she finds herself faced with the obstacles the Tengu moved lightly past.

On the ground below, Izzik and Syldar run after. With the darkness and most especially the angle caused by their lower elevation it is difficult to keep up with the Tengu and Syldar can't see the Tengu to use his Grease spell.

[sblock=OOC]Chase on! Ok, I'm going to try to run this using the chase rules from the GameMastery Guide. I've never used them before so we'll see how it works (and if I can manage it).

Aressa can be cautious in her advance (standard action) or she can try to keep up with the Tengu (full round action). If she chooses to be cautious she needs to succeed with one skill below, your choice (but that would mean the Tengu is pulling away). If she wants to keep up with the Tengu she needs to make both skill checks. Aressa's greater speed will give her a +2 bonus on the skill checks she makes during the chase.
Steeply Sloped Roof (Climb DC 10)
Crumbling Rooftop (Acrobatics DC 20)

Izzik and Syldar (and the other characters when they resume posting) have different options since they are on the ground below. Same as above (standard action - one check; full round action - both checks) but they have the additional option to substitute one of the skills for a Climb check of an equal DC to join the chase on the rooftops (though note that doing so will cause them to lose a little ground).
Perception (DC 20)
Knowledge (Local) (DC 10)

Current Standing:
Characters (G) & Eidolons (R) --> O --> O --> Tengu (R).[/sblock]
[sblock=Combat]
Combatants posted in init order

[U]Character         AC  HP  InHand/Condition[/U]
Syldar            16   8  l.bow/none
Leanan            15   4  none/none
Xan               18  10  c.bow/none
Xan's eidolon     12  11  none/none
[color=red]Tengu1[/color]            15 [COLOR=Red]-12[/COLOR]  s.bow/[I][COLOR=Red]dead[/COLOR][/I]
Leonion           19  11  none/none
Heather           12   [COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]  staff/none
[color=red]Tengu2[/color]            15 [COLOR=red]-10  [/COLOR]s.bow/[COLOR=red]dead[/COLOR]
Izzik             15   9  none/none
[color=red]Tengu3[/color]            15 [COLOR=Red]-14[/COLOR]  s.bow/[color=red]dead[/color]
Aressa            [COLOR=RoyalBlue]18[/COLOR]    [color=yellow] 10[/color]  none/[COLOR=RoyalBlue][I]mage armor[/I][/COLOR]
Tengu4            15   9  s.bow/[I]none[/I]

[/sblock]

 

[Aldern Foxglove]

[sblock=OOC]Before I roll I'm going to say that I find the fact that the Tengu appears to auto succeed on the skill checks very uncomfortable. I don't object to the format, but if PCs need to make skill checks to traverse something so should NPCs imo.

I note that the Tengu are good at both skills.[/sblock]

Aressa races forward heedless of the danger, while Izzik sprints after below searching for flashes of Aressa and the Tengu as they hurtle on above.

[sblock=OOC]Going to roll Izzik's perception I realized that its not possible for him to succeed and yet I do want to spend a fullround following. I think this chase method is a bad idea. Why can't Aressa simply shout "this way" for example? NPCs auto succeeding on anything during play is a bad precedent unless it is vital to the plot and even then its probably a bad idea.

I know I do it at least once in my own adventure proposals - have rolls with predetermined results - but this is only NPCs auto failing so the PCs can be the stars which I feel is a wholly different kettle of fish.[/sblock]

[sblock=Chase Rules]The PFSRD offers chase rules which might be better used as standard since everyone can access them, I can't seem to find the ones from the Gamemastery Guide.[/sblock]

 

[udalrich]

[sblock="OOC"]I agree with Aldern. It appears that our options are either to fall behind or keep even, and since we can't see the Tengu, we can't make range attacks either. So eventually he escapes as we fail rolls and fall behind or do not attempt both checks and fall behind.

Since Sildar cannot see the Tengu, she would have cast dancing lights in the general direction of where she expects him to be. (I indicated this in the post for last turn.) Does that show the Tengu?

While the GM can set the rules however, the GMG indicates that it's a move action, not a standard, to try a check. That will make a difference if we see the Tengu and want to try spell casting or ranged attacks.[/sblock]

Syldar follows along, carefully picking her way among obstacles. Above the roofs, four balls of light bounce along in the direction of the Tengu.

[sblock="Actions"]Std: Try to single move.
Free: Move dancing lights along the roof top where the Tengu is likely to be.

If it is a move action to move and the lights show the Tengu, she'll cast Grease as well.

I think it is a free action to control the lights. All the spell says is that it does not require concentration. At worst, it should be a move which is only a problem if the Tengu is already visible.
[/sblock]

 

[GlassEye]

[sblock=OOC]

Before I roll I'm going to say that I find the fact that the Tengu appears to auto succeed on the skill checks very uncomfortable. I don't object to the format, but if PCs need to make skill checks to traverse something so should NPCs imo.

I'm sorry that you are uncomfortable with the way I've handled this. I have a question for you: If we were playing face to face and I rolled behind a DM's screen would you question it? In fact, the npc did make his skill checks; I just made them while working on the chase scene in my living room with real dice.

Going to roll Izzik's perception I realized that its not possible for him to succeed and yet I do want to spend a fullround following. I think this chase method is a bad idea. Why can't Aressa simply shout "this way" for example? NPCs auto succeeding on anything during play is a bad precedent unless it is vital to the plot and even then its probably a bad idea.

Again, I'm sorry you don't like the way I'm handling the end of this encounter. Aressa can shout "this way" or something like it, and I would give you a bonus to your Perception roll. The npc hasn't auto-succeeded on anything you are assuming he has.

I know I do it at least once in my own adventure proposals - have rolls with predetermined results - but this is only NPCs auto failing so the PCs can be the stars which I feel is a wholly different kettle of fish.

This could open a big discussion on the philosophy of gameplay that I really don't think is necessary to get into at this time.

The PFSRD offers chase rules which might be better used as standard since everyone can access them, I can't seem to find the ones from the Gamemastery Guide.

The chase rules on PFSRD are the chase rules from the GameMastery Guide.

I agree with Aldern. It appears that our options are either to fall behind or keep even, and since we can't see the Tengu, we can't make range attacks either. So eventually he escapes as we fail rolls and fall behind or do not attempt both checks and fall behind.

Unless, of course, I'm not out to 'cheat' and the Tengu happens to fail checks later. If the Tengu does make his checks and the characters don't then yeah, it does appear that that would be the eventual result. Your line of sight issues are a direct result of the decisions you made earlier in the combat; it's not fair to blame me for that.

Since Sildar cannot see the Tengu, she would have cast dancing lights in the general direction of where she expects him to be. (I indicated this in the post for last turn.) Does that show the Tengu?

I saw that post. The problem is distance, elevation, and darkness. Dancing Lights will eliminate darkness as a difficulty (at least in a certain area) but because of the difference in elevation it doesn't take much distance moved before he's out of your sight (which he did on his turn during round three). There's no way for the dancing light to follow or illuminate your target for you when you can't see your target because of the building. A further difficulty is that taking a spellcasting action would mean you aren't chasing after the Tengu (see below). In all fairness to you, since I hadn't posted the chase information before you posted your action for round four, you can change your action if you wish.

While the GM can set the rules however, the GMG indicates that it's a move action, not a standard, to try a check. That will make a difference if we see the Tengu and want to try spell casting or ranged attacks.

That's not exactly correct. The exact quote from the GMG is:

Using the base assumption of 30-foot cards, it takes a move
action to move through a single card. When a character exits
from a card, he must choose one of that card’s two obstacles
to face as a standard action before moving to the next card.
Success means the character moves to the next card, while
failure means the character must face the obstacle again
on the next round. Instead of exiting a card, a character
can choose to take another action not directly related to
navigating the chase’s course, such as casting a spell or
drawing a weapon.

I think it is a free action to control the lights. All the spell says is that it does not require concentration. At worst, it should be a move which is only a problem if the Tengu is already visible.

Since the spell doesn't indicate the type of action it seems logical to assume that it is a free action to control the lights.

It comes down to this: do you trust me to be a fair DM? It seems the answer to that question is 'no' and that isn't much encouragement for me to continue this game. Frankly, at this point, I feel like stepping down and letting HolyMan finish when he returns.[/sblock]

 

[Aldern Foxglove]

[sblock=OOC]Ah, well that makes me much happier, but I really think rolls should be included in the thread. It honestly did not occur to me that you might have rolled elsewhere for some reason.

But why bother putting attacks rolls in for DMs if we all trust them so much? sorry I prefer to see them and personally I'd like to explicitly state that all rolls should be made where they are visible - excluding those such as sense motive and bluff, occasionally perception, which might reveal something the PCs ought not know. I think doing so neatly avoids a number of issues and then we don't have to trust DMs - the amount of DMs who admit they fudge, or flat out make up results to suit them always astounds me when it comes up on forums, etc.

And I am a little troubled by your use of the rules, because you are not following them as written - hence my confusion. By my reading we make a chase check - which Aressa has +4 on - and then factor in obstacles. So Aressa would fall one more increment behind for failing her climb, but might make up ground via the chase check.

The others being further behind should have lower dcs as they can avoid the obstacles. Now I can see why you would exchange these for other checks in this case, but I think choosing an uncommon knowledge skill and a dc 20 perception seems a bit much, especially when you consider that you are talking about treacherous roof tops with damaged tiles, etc., by definition.

Now knowing the Tengu did roll has eased most of my worries, but I'd really prefer to use the rules as written. Anyway, that's the last I'll say I'll be fine if you want to continue as is just expressing my opinion - why is it so hard not to sound like a douche when doing that? [/sblock]

 

[GlassEye]

[sblock=OOC]

And I am a little troubled by your use of the rules, because you are not following them as written - hence my confusion. By my reading we make a chase check - which Aressa has +4 on - and then factor in obstacles. So Aressa would fall one more increment behind for failing her climb, but might make up ground via the chase check.

I am following the rules as written. You have the choice to move forward one or three 'cards' (I glossed this as cautious advancement or keeping up with the Tengu this round, ironically, so we wouldn't get bogged down in the rules) or perform a non chase-related action. When you leave a particular card you have to make one or two skill checks depending on your choice of actions. It's all movement and skill (obstacle) checks; nothing in there about 'chase checks', or making up lost ground (though you can make up lost ground if the Tengu fails checks and you make them). I did miss that the +2 check is cumulative; my apologies for that.

The others being further behind should have lower dcs as they can avoid the obstacles. Now I can see why you would exchange these for other checks in this case, but I think choosing an uncommon knowledge skill and a dc 20 perception seems a bit much, especially when you consider that you are talking about treacherous roof tops with damaged tiles, etc., by definition.

By others are you talking about Izzik and Syldar? I disagree that they should have lower DCs. Sure, they can avoid the obstacles of the loose tiles and sloped roofs but they have to deal with darkness and not being able to see because of buildings and odd echoing sounds and with the fact that there isn't necessarily going to be a convenient street or alley wherever they need to go. They are, essentially, on a different chase track. In order to keep up they have to find their way through streets that they may not know (hence the Knowledge: Local check) and deal with not being able to see their target (the Perception). And by the chase rules, DC 20 is a standard difficulty for a check. I think I would have been within my rights to boost that to 25 (difficult) considering the circumstances of the scene. The only thing I've added here is the ability to get on the same chase track as the Tengu.

Now knowing the Tengu did roll has eased most of my worries, but I'd really prefer to use the rules as written. Anyway, that's the last I'll say I'll be fine if you want to continue as is just expressing my opinion - why is it so hard not to sound like a douche when doing that?

Again, I am using the rules as written. I'm at a loss to understand how we've come up with such different readings of the same rules. And expressing opinion is fine just be aware that to the person on the other end it may sound more like an accusation.[/sblock]

 

[Aldern Foxglove]

[sblock=OOC]Here are the rules I'm looking. Was using the wrong term btw, should be move check not chase check. I agree you are well within your rights to set the checks for those below I'd be happy with Aressa keeps shouting so they can stay in the same general vicinity for myself since Aressa becomes weaker if she gets beyond 100 feet of Izzik and I think realistically she is the only one with a chance of catching him.

[sblock=Chase Rules]

Chase Rules

The Movement Check

A character’s Move check is +2 per 5′ of base speed. For an unencumbered human that moves 30′, that’s +12. In a self-powered race like a footrace, you can add your Str bonus to this in a given round but then have to make a DC 15 Fort save to not become fatigued from the exertion. Use this same formula for other movement types (riding, swimming) because it takes differing speeds into account well. As a bonus, this means you can have a chase where various participants are using different modes of movement.

The Chase Track

Rather than keeping up with specific distances, a chase has distance represented by an arbitrary condition track. It’s defined relative to whoever’s in the lead, and has six levels -

1. Close Contact – within melee range of leader. Subject to all obstacles the leader has to deal with.
2. Point Blank – close range (all those “within 30 feet” powers proc here). Take leader’s obstacles or take an alternate path at DC 20.
3. Short – Take leader’s obstacles or an alternate path at DC 15. -2 on ranged attacks.
4. Medium – From this far back, it’s usually easy to avoid obstacles. -4 on ranged attacks.
5. Long – -6 on ranged attacks.
6. Lost – you done lost ‘em. If you have allies still in the chase and you can still run (not fatigued or just giving up) you can run after them sufficiently to at least arrive on the scene once it’s all over, but you can’t get back into the actual chase.

For each 5 points by which you beat the leader’s movement check, you close by one category on the track; similarly you slip back by one for each 5 points by which you miss their check.
Chase participants start at a chase level that makes sense – if they are right there with the leader and take off after them when they take off, they can start at point blank. If they’re a round of movement away, or pause to shoot or take another action before they get going, start them at medium range.

Obstacles

In a chase, there’s a bunch of different kinds of obstacles and complications that can come up. Here’s a sample but not comprehensive list. In general the checks to pass these obstacles are DC 15. If you fail the check, you drop back one level on the chase track; if you miss by 5 you take 1d6 nonlethal damage from a collision or similar mishap. This is an urban specific list. In a crowded urban environment, each round has a 1 in 3 chance of bringing a mandatory obstacle, or the leader can deliberately head towards obstacles as desired. Roll 1d8 for what type, or choose one:

1. Simple (Acrobatics, attack an object) – barrels, gate, street vendor’s blanket, etc.
2. Barrier (Acrobatics) – fruit cart, unexpected turn
3. Wall (Climb) – traditional “end of alley” wall, fence
4. Gap (Acrobatics-jump) – ditch, open manhole, pit
5. Traffic (Acrobatics/Overrun) – pedestrians, mule team, orc pirates
6. Squeeze (Escape Artist) – crawlspace, hole in wall
7. Water (Swim) – river, wharf, pool, fountain
8. Terrain (Acrobatics) – gravel, mud bank, slick cobblestones

Chase participants farther back on the chase track can choose whether or not to hit the same obstacle. Chasers in close contact have to negotiate the same obstacles as the leader. Chasers in point blank can take the obstacle or make an alternate check at DC 20 to avoid it – for example, “I can’t swim, I’m going to run around the reflecting pool instead.” Chasers at short range can take the obstacle or an alternate check at DC 15. Chasers farther back can generally avoid routine obstacles, but the DM can require them if it’s logically necessary (the leader swam across the river, for example).
You’d choose different obstacles and skills for other kinds of chase – a horseback chase would use Ride instead of Acrobatics, and a chase in the country would have trees and hedges instead of crates and alleys.
Actions

Anyone in close contact with the leader can conduct melee attacks on them. Whoever wins initiative gets to determine if attacks or Movement checks happen first.
A character can take a missile attack but automatically drops back one level on the chase track when they do.
If the chase goes a number of rounds equal to anyone’s Con score they have to make DC 20 Fort saves each round or become fatigued, and effectively drop out.

[/sblock]

So my understanding of the rules is that each round you,

1.) Determine where characters are on the chase track.
2.) Make a movement check with a bonus of +2 for every 5 ft. of your base speed - possibly adding your strength modifier if you choose to make a fort save which can leave you fatigued if you fail.
3.) Deal with obstacles - 1 in 3 chance of an obstacle occurring in a round, though the leader can deliberately head for them, typical dc 15, characters further back on the track can avoid these or take alternatives.
4.) Determine how many steps back or forward each character has come relative to the leader by putting together the results of their move check - relative to the leaders - and any obstacles they or the leader failed.

I think your position - forgive me if I misrepresent - is that the movement check is the check to avoid obstacles. But the rules spell out a +12 bonus for a 30ft. speed, and obstacles only normally come up every 1 in 3 rounds. Or perhaps you have tried to eliminate the movement check to make things simpler?

Not bothered if you are using something else, etc., but that is my understanding of the rules given in that option, and I have not rolled any movement checks, etc.

Perhaps this is a case where it makes sense for the DM to make rolls until the outcome is determined and then let us know what happens so we can post a descriptive account of our efforts? Otherwise it could drag on for a long time.[/sblock]