D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[DammitVictor]

What if all martials got a Hand based feature, Foot based feature, Waist based feature and Head based feature equivalent to a magic item?

Like a level 9 a fighter can get the features of one uncommon glove or gauntlet. Belts at level 12, Boots at 15.

Magic of Incarnum?

 

[Krachek]

When you replace a fighter with a casters, you gain all the things a fighter can do (ie. deal damage and mitigate party damage) PLUS gain all the things a caster can do. Replacing a fighter with a cleric or a druid or an artificer isn't replacing like for like. It's replacing and getting a whole lot more on top.

According to DnD beyond data Fighter is a popular choice.
That create a mystery. Why people like to play a crappy class!

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

According to DnD beyond data Fighter is a popular choice.
That create a mystery. Why people like to play a crappy class!

Ah yes, what a mysterious gotcha moment this is, it's not like people would ever pick character theme over power in an RPG.

That said, people have always played a lot of Fighter, but they played it even more in 4e, where it was actually capable.

 

[Krachek]

Ah yes, what a mysterious gotcha moment this is, it's not like people would ever pick character theme over power in an RPG.

That said, people have always played a lot of Fighter, but they played it even more in 4e, where it was actually capable, and they were for once able to play what they wanted to play without being punished for it.

But considering the popularity of 4ed, it was in fact much less people who like to play fighter.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'm not too finicky about the particulars, but I think if you had a range of outcomes between

"I can produce the effects of that spell 100% of the time"

And..

"I cannot produce the effects of that spell at all"

Then you could more easily introduce things into the system that make casting more difficult or easier sometimes. Maybe you're standing on a leyline or the moon is just right or something and you get a bonus on whatever your casting.

This. Magic as a skill just allows more stuff.

and as I said to DNDwarlord, I didn't say non casters are useless. I said we don't play them and there is a huge gulf especially at high level between what they and non casters can bring... so when MY GROUP plays we decide on if we are doing full caster or not full caster. Some half casters work for both some for one more then the other

I hope we aren’t gonna start picking at exact wording. You said that casters are “always the correct answer” multiple times.

If you didn’t intend to suggest that non-casters are useless, well, fine, we can go forward from that understanding.

 

[Minigiant]

Heh. Tell me about it. We expect the fighter to endlessly replace magic items with better magic items, just to keep up, but, meanwhile, the casters are still using the same spell focus they got at 1st level and are the ones that have to be kept up with.

Imagine if we gated spells behind spell focuses. You can't cast higher than 2nd level spells until you get a magical spell focus item. Then again at 5th level spells and then again at 7th and then again at 9th level spells. There is absolutely zero chance that would ever get passed.

But, a fighter? No problem. He's SUPPOSED to toss away that sword that was passed down from his grandfather the first chance he gets. You want to focus on a particular weapon fighting style? Better hope the DM is going to support that choice and make sure that the "right" magic items show up in the game. It's why you never saw players take anything other that longsword proficiency back in the day. All the best magic items were longswords.

The thing is in the olden days, wizards didn'tget spells automaigically
A wizard got whatever spells their master taught them and wrote in their spell book. All other spells are found, traded, or bought.

IF 5e Worked like ye old days.

1. WARRIORS: Fighters, Barbarians, Monks and other warrior types would work the same.
2. EXPERTS:
   1. Rogue would work the same.
   2. Bard would only know Viscous Mockery and 2 other spells.
      1. Bards can learn any spell from many spell list via a tutor or scroll
      2. Bards no longer automatically learn spells at level up.
   3. Ranger would work the same
3. PRIEST
   1. Cleric Domains and Paladin Oath spells would be even more limited
   2. Druids would have to meet every animal they wish to turn into
4. MAGES: Mages don't learn spells of their choice at level up.
   1. Wizards and Warlocks would have to collect scrolls and put it into a spellbook
      1. Wizards start with a spellbook of 1st level spells and cantrips.
      2. Warlocks start with EB and spells based on their pact
   2. Sorcerers would have to roll to learn a random spell or do a ritual with an item or scroll to learn magic on that item instead
5. MONSTERS: Monsters are nerfed
   1. Lower HP
   2. Lower speeds
   3. Commanders and Boss monster have variants with magic gear.

Now everyone is dependent on treasure and no one is disparity is lowered.
But this is less fun and more wonky.

 

[Remathilis]

Generally, Monk doesn't fit the fantasy some players want from a martial warrior.

They want to use big weapons, with big strength, and big armor! Not be a weedy little dodgy man in pajamas!

That and the Monk is explicitly supernatural, which some people don't want, which is exactly what holds back design (in my opinion, YMMV).

And that's a shame. If the fighter (and rogue) were as supernatural as the monk, this conversation would be over.

Monks use ki/spirit. It's a supernatural Phlebotinum. So is a blood hunter's hunter's bane, or a barbarians primal energy. And all of those classes more or less laugh at the laws of physics and get cool things to do.

If it were me, I would remake the base fighter to have a similar "spirit" energy. Training, innate talent and the ability to tap into the magical energies of the world and channel it through their weapons and armor. These are not common soldiers or guards, they are people who hold a spark for something greater. Likewise, I'd let the rogue tap into the power of shadow to master supernatural acts. More ninja than cutpurse.

Of course, this assumes a certain amount of PCs are Special design, but I'm ok with that. The game already sets bards away from common performers and clerics away from average priests. So what if the last two classes in the game also get magic? I'd even be cool if they straight up replace them with dragon knights, swordsages, spell blades and other more fantastical warrior classes. They could also get creative and make rangers and paladins have supernatural abilities without spells.

Just retire any real notion that the martial classes are nonmagical.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well, I wouldn't phrase it that way.

But, in ten years of 5e, I've yet to see a single classed fighter played.

And I rarely see groups without at least one. The universe is a strange place.

And, since it was brought up, does Critical Role have a single classed fighter?

Percy. He took Magic Initiate: Warlock, but IIRC he was 20 levels straight fighter.

It's not like there seems to be bountiful examples from play of single classed fighters. I mean, years ago, I posted a poll that got some response: https://www.enworld.org/threads/pol...-levels-in-a-class.592445/page-4#post-7255673 - and only a quarter (although to be fair, it was the largest single group) of characters had 4 or more levels in fighter. Hardly scientific, absolutely.

But, my experience mirror's @OldSchoolGamerGirl pretty closely. Fighters, as far as any of the groups I've played or DM'd for, might as well not exist.

Then again, I don't see halflings either.

And in both cases, the data shows that a lot of people play them. Maybe groups with people like us who overthink D&D tend not to gravitate toward fighters, and in that context I’m an anomaly, who knows.

 

[Yaarel]

5e Wizard gains two new spells at each new level. I am in favor of at least one of them coming from the subclass. This would help the Wizard be more thematically flavorful, and give the DM more discretion about which spells can be found as treasure for the spellbook in relationship to the setting.

 

[Pedantic]

And that's a shame. If the fighter (and rogue) were as supernatural as the monk, this conversation would be over.

Monks use ki/spirit. It's a supernatural Phlebotinum. So is a blood hunter's hunter's bane, or a barbarians primal energy. And all of those classes more or less laugh at the laws of physics and get cool things to do.

If it were me, I would remake the base fighter to have a similar "spirit" energy. Training, innate talent and the ability to tap into the magical energies of the world and channel it through their weapons and armor. These are not common soldiers or guards, they are people who hold a spark for something greater. Likewise, I'd let the rogue tap into the power of shadow to master supernatural acts. More ninja than cutpurse.

This has long been my preferred solution as well. Being good with a sword is a great level 5ish ability, then you should probably start working on whatever you're going to do to fly. We've let the magical classes eat all kinds of stuff from wider and wider pools of fantasy, the martials need to keep up. Sword vs. sorcery fantasy is increasingly dated. Warriors do cool magic stuff all the time in modern fantasy media.

Of course, this assumes a certain amount of PCs are Special design, but I'm ok with that. The game already sets bards away from common performers and clerics away from average priests. So what if the last two classes in the game also get magic? I'd even be cool if they straight up replace them with dragon knights, swordsages, spell blades and other more fantastical warrior classes. They could also get creative and make rangers and paladins have supernatural abilities without spells.

Just retire any real notion that the martial classes are nonmagical.

Nyah, it just means that PCs belong to the class of people that are "special" and determining the size, social function, and general impact of that class is one of the classic joys of D&D worldbuilding.