D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

If someone feels they're doing big damage and getting their kicks out of it, you can't really say it isn't providing the fun experience just because it might not be for you.

I don't think anyone said that. NOw I have resently learned people who block me I can't see so maybe someone did and I can't see it.

THe argument normally goes a full caster can deal close to or more depending on day the damage a melee non caster can, but the caster has 100 more options the non caster can not have.

Hence why so many tend to react negatively towards martial abilities that are mechanically indistinct from spells.

I still don't get why anything that a fighter has to use a resouces for has to be a type of magic...

 

[Emberashh]

And martial design keeps being done in a way to prevent the fantasy it's supposed to be servicing.

That's the problem.

No kid picks up a stick and pretend they're just swinging and doing 'big damage'; they pretend to be badasses. Something martials aren't allowed to be because 'verisimilitude' or 'simplicity' or 'the stick isn't magic' or some other excuse.

Something Ive noticed to be very reoccuring in these arguments is the seeming underlying assumption that all Martials are Champion Fighters, one of the few combinations you can point at that have genuinely nothing going for them in this regard.

Meanwhile, IIRC, things like Samurai have one of the highest damage outputs possible without even having any explicitly magical add ons. And then you have things like the Rune or Echo Knights that, while their abilities are magical, don't play anything like mages mechanically.

And thats just Fighters. Barbarians have all kinds of things that push them in this direction, and Ive never seen a Rogue who didn't find it satisfying to rack up Sneak Attacks.

And then you get into the martial/casters like Rangers and Paladins, both of whom aren't always played like mages. Like, theres a reason why I was incredibly pissed to find out they replaced something like Whirlwind Attack and Volley with a crummy naughty word spell.

And all of this before you get into things like the already litigated to death Improvise Action that all of these classes can benefit from.

As said, the problem is not non-existent, but it isn't nearly as severe as some want to keepr asserting it is, particularly when the bigger mechanical problem is that caster design is fundamentally flawed in the first place.

Chasing martials up a mechanically dysfunctional tree isn't the right way to address all of these issues. Nerf mages into the ground and get their house in order, then fill in the gaps to bring Martials to parity.

This is where I wonder what level of mechanical distinction is truly necessary. Is 'Second Wind' a problem? Or 'Action surge'?

Because their entire mechanical identity is "on your turn you do a thing, and you gotta rest before you do it again"

This would seem to be just as usable a mechanical template for higher impact abilities as it is for Action Surge and Second Wind.

Im pointing more at the over-suggested Maneuver system.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

This is where I wonder what level of mechanical distinction is truly necessary. Is 'Second Wind' a problem? Or 'Action surge'?

Because their entire mechanical identity is "on your turn you do a thing, and you gotta rest before you do it again"

This would seem to be just as usable a mechanical template for higher impact abilities as it is for Action Surge and Second Wind.

I suggested giving alternat abilities for action surge and second wind so you could pull off a mountain hammer or come and get it instead. I was told that is a spell

 

[Emberashh]

Also, what counts as 'mechanically indistinct' from spells?

Because the casters already looted every means of mechanically representing a discreet ability. Technically, fighters shouldn't even be allowed to make regular attacks based on this 'rule'.

As seen here. I did already point out a clear example of what this can look like. DCCs Mighty Deed (and its descendent in my Rogues Cunning Act) is another example.

Even my Barbarian can be pointed at for this despite it intentionally avoiding the use of anything other than basic attacks.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Something Ive noticed to be very reoccuring in these arguments is the seeming underlying assumption that all Martials are Champion Fighters, one of the few combinations you can point at that have genuinely nothing going for them in this regard.

the problem is when we try to give exact examples we are told we are cherry picking...

If I tell the story of the guy who wanted to be a bomb diggity swordsman and he made a fighter, and another player well they wanted to be a cool spell caster with a sword and made a hexblade (the first was a new player the second was someone who was playing for a year or two already) and the new player got more and more annoye with what they could not do.

I also could tell you about my character concept that we all agreed needed to be a sword bard refluffed even though it was a basic swordswoman

Meanwhile, IIRC, things like Samurai have one of the highest damage outputs possible without even having any explicitly magical add ons. And then you have things like the Rune or Echo Knights that, while their abilities are magical, don't play anything like mages mechanically.

I have heard good things about the three knights Echo, Rune and Psi... but still they are at best a bit more damage then a damage focused caster, but without non damaging options.

And thats just Fighters. Barbarians have all kinds of things that push them in this direction, and Ive never seen a Rogue who didn't find it satisfying to rack up Sneak Attacks.

again if you just want damage the easy way is the rogue or barbarian, the slightly harder way is fighter... but almost any caster (not sure on sorcerer) can come real close and have more options)

And all of this before you get into things like the already litigated to death Improvise Action that all of these classes can benefit from.

is there some rule where casters can't improvise? since they by defualt have more options can not they use those more options to improvise better?

As said, the problem is not non-existent, but it isn't nearly as severe as some want to keepr asserting it is, particularly when the bigger mechanical problem is that caster design is fundamentally flawed in the first place.

I agree casters need to be wrangled in but they aren't

 

[Emberashh]

I have heard good things about the three knights Echo, Rune and Psi... but still they are at best a bit more damage then a damage focused caster, but without non damaging options

Rune has a number of utility things it can do, as does Psi. Ive never actually seen Echo in action and I don't care to look it up atm but I recall it having something.

is there some rule where casters can't improvise? since they by defualt have more options can not they use those more options to improvise better

The thing that has to be asked about this is if something is a valuable part of a characters options if its not something unique to them.

After all, does anyone here think spells aren't a valuable part of a Caster class despite the variety of ways all non-casters have to access and use spells, sometimes just as good as the Casters do? Like IA, there isn't a single class in the entire game, even just in the PHB, that can't access spellcasting.

The answer should obviously be no, yet because IA isn't a uniquely Martial thing we seem eager to discount it as a part of their toolbox.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Something Ive noticed to be very reoccuring in these arguments is the seeming underlying assumption that all Martials are Champion Fighters, one of the few combinations you can point at that have genuinely nothing going for them in this regard.

1) When the primary argument for the fighter continuing to be boring is 'damage', then it is fair to point out that 'damage' doesn't cut it.

2) The abilities granted by fighter subclasses are even more limited than caster slots in service of forcing them into a five minute workday alongside said casters and the fallacy that damage will make up for that.

Oh good, I can budget to one cool thing in a fight before going back to sucking and failing. And that 's only in some fights because for some reason I'm choke-chained to Proficiency bonus. Joy.

 

[Emberashh]

1) When the primary argument for the fighter continuing to be boring is 'damage', then it is fair to point out that 'damage' doesn't cut it.

2) The abilities granted by fighter subclasses are even more limited than caster slots in service of forcing them into a five minute workday alongside said casters and the fallacy that damage will make up for that.

Oh good, I can budget to one cool thing in a fight before going back to sucking and failing. And that 's only in some fights because for some reason I'm choke-chained to Proficiency bonus. Joy.

1) for some people.

2) then the issue is less to do with not having enough abilities and more to do with not having enough chances to use the ones they have.

Ive said it before but this is precisely why its important to accurately identify whats causing problems. You start to reveal the fixes that can be made that don't require chasing Casters up the dysfunctional tree.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

ve said it before but this is precisely why its important to accurately identify whats causing problems. You start to reveal the fixes that can be made that don't require chasing Casters up the dysfunctional tree.

I think there is a mix of things.

1 you need to keep a basic "has high hp ac and does good to great damage"
2 you need to make a class or sub set of subclasses that give the martials options on par with where spell casters will end up
and
3 you need to drop all the full casters down the nerf tree each hitting a bunch of branches on the way down.

 

[Vaalingrade]

1) for some people.

Are we really going to do the dumb 'nothing is universal' thing? Really?

We already got 'badwrongfun'. Are we doing terrible argumentation bingo?