D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

What powers those magical abilities except the metagame currency of levels and XP? What allows him to break the laws of physics?

Different laws of physics and biology.

 

[Chaosmancer]

All it needs it’s a
Vorpal sword,
a pair of boots of flying or at least boots of striding and springing,
a dwarven plate,
That will do pretty much the job.

And we are back to "don't worry fighter, you may suck, but your gear doesn't!"

A man who can only be great because of his tools, isn't great. Heck, would you consider someone who used a pre-programmed robot to make insanely accurate shots with a rifle a sniper? Is the world's greatest sniper the man who can hit ENTER on his keyboard to launch his sniper drone then go back to watching Netflix?

 

[Gammadoodler]

Take away the specific resources involved with both and describe to me the mechanical distinction between Trip Attack and Grease, other than, of course, the mildly different effects provided.

There isn't one, and there isn't a linguistic means to communicate that other than to just point to it.

And Ill preemptively note that abilities aren't (always) affected by the same perception. Abilities have a specific framing that tends to trump the specific mechanics involved, which is often bolstered by the fact that most of them are unique to the class they're associated with, whereas maneuvers and spells are not.

Grease affects an area, making it difficult terrain, and triggering a dex saving throw from anyone in or who enters the area vs. being knocked prone, and can last for up to a minute.

Trip attack triggers a strength save vs. being knocked prone on a landed attack roll with a damage rider stacked on top.

Circling back and skipping past the actual substantive issues with your example, your premise is "outside of the resources expended and effects triggered, what is the mechanical difference"?

Is that how you typically compare mechanics, by ignoring what they cost and what they do?

Edit: Going a step beyond that. If you don't think there is a way to even put into words, what makes something more or less spell-like, then I think you've set yourself a fools errand in designing mechanics distinct from spells.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Take away the specific resources involved with both and describe to me the mechanical distinction between Trip Attack and Grease, other than, of course, the mildly different effects provided.

There isn't one, and there isn't a linguistic means to communicate that other than to just point to it.

grease can be counterspelled, dispelled, or negated by an anti-magic field. it cannot be cast on the same turn as a bonus action levelled spell. it requires a verbal component and either a material component or a pouch/focus (i'm considering an attack equal to a somatic component for this).

 

[Emberashh]

Is that how you typically compare mechanics, by ignoring what they cost and what they do?

As noted earlier, this is about what the mechanics feel like to use. Theres a visceral aspect to game design that isn't just esoteric math or paragraphs of description.

The simplest example of that is just the inherent fun in rolling dice, even without a game attached.

That is the perspective I think is being hooked into, knowingly or not, by people that take issue with martials that feel like reskinned mages. Maneuvers and Spells do not feel mechanically different despite their varied effects and resources. (The estoteric math and paragraphs, as mentioned)

Which, in turn, is why I pointed to the examples I did of how to induce that difference and avoid having the fantasies get muddled. My Battle Combo system doesn't work like maneuvers or spells, and it works significantly differently from how spells in its own system are going to work.

That then gets compared within its own fantasy subgroup ("Martials") and even there the differences are stark and go in design directions that only overlap in the sense that they're three (actually 8 if we look at the whole system as intended) distinct bases for delivering a martial fantasy.

grease can be counterspelled, dispelled, or negated by an anti-magic field. it cannot be cast on the same turn as a bonus action levelled spell. it requires a verbal component and either a material component or a pouch/focus (i'm considering an attack equal to a somatic component for this).

See above. None of that is what Im talking about.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

See above. None of that is what Im talking about.

i don't understand how what i said and what you said to gamma correlates in any way. what i described are not "effects" or "resources" - they are fundamental properties of how spells work compared to maneuvers.

 

[Gammadoodler]

As noted earlier, this is about what the mechanics feel like to use. Theres a visceral aspect to game design that isn't just esoteric math or paragraphs of description.

The simplest example of that is just the inherent fun in rolling dice, even without a game attached.

That is the perspective I think is being hooked into, knowingly or not, by people that take issue with martials that feel like reskinned mages. Maneuvers and Spells do not feel mechanically different despite their varied effects and resources. (The estoteric math and paragraphs, as mentioned)

Which, in turn, is why I pointed to the examples I did of how to induce that difference and avoid having the fantasies get muddled. My Battle Combo system doesn't work like maneuvers or spells, and it works significantly differently from how spells in its own system are going to work.

That then gets compared within its own fantasy subgroup ("Martials") and even there the differences are stark and go in design directions that only overlap in the sense that they're three (actually 8 if we look at the whole system as intended) distinct bases for delivering a martial fantasy.

So to summarize:

• Nonspecific people say the mechanics feel the same.
• You have no perspective on what might be the cause for this.
• We should do something else.

I mean ok, but it seems strange to try fix a problem when you cant even describe it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

grease can be counterspelled, dispelled, or negated by an anti-magic field.

But let's be clear: it likely won't.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

But let's be clear: it likely won't.

sure, but that's because it's grease. who's gonna bother dispelling grease?

 

[Gammadoodler]

sure, but that's because it's grease. who's gonna bother dispelling grease?

Ikr..just buy some Goo-Gone or something.