D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Remathilis]

This is so perfectly said.

It starts real early though.

I design a dungeon with a 25ft gap/pit you need to get over. No fighter or rouge of any level is jumping it but a few skill checks and creativity can get someone across and then pull a rope to just hand over hand it.

You can get a hood ten minutes if gaming out of that.. or you can spider climb/mysty step/fly and say done.

So spend time and rp and think or just push a button on your sheet and spend a resource (or not I think you can get spider climb at will)

An arcane locked door has a clue that there is a mystic key on a guard. You can go find the key kill or bribe the guard get the key come back or cast knock.

When you throw around 10+ spells a day you get quite a few of these.

I think part of the problem is the assumption that a 25 ft gap should be an obstacle that involves multiple checks.

Let's take a 3rd level party. Low level right? How many ways can I cross 25 ft? Plenty. I can cast levitate, misty step, or jump. You can be an eladrin or shadar-kai and teleport. You can be a tabaxi and climb, or a dhampir and spider climb. You can be a druid and wild shape. You can be a fairy or aarakroca and fly. You can be a vhuman with fey-touched and misty step. And I'm SURE I'm missing plenty of options in subclasses and other features. Moral of the story is the game has intentionally made a 25 ft gap trivial. They have done the same for swimming, darkness, and even hunger and thirst.

 

[HammerMan]

I think part of the problem is the assumption that a 25 ft gap should be an obstacle that involves multiple checks.

I didn’t say it has to. I am saying that the level of challenge is very different. It is still a challenge at 10+ level for a party of fighters. Spells on the other hand can get around it easy.

Let's take a 3rd level party. Low level right? How many ways can I cross 25 ft? Plenty. I can cast levitate, misty step, or jump. You can be an eladrin or shadar-kai and teleport.

So yes you can magic across that was the pont.

You can be a tabaxi and climb, or a dhampir and spider climb. You can be a druid and wild shape. You can be a fairy or aarakroca and fly. You can be a vhuman with fey-touched and misty step.

So we have 2 non magic here the tabaxi and the A bird race. So 2 races 0 classes can do it easy so tho it magic.

And I'm SURE I'm missing plenty of options in subclasses and other features.

I am sure you are too but I’m also sure few of any will be non magic

Moral of the story is the game has intentionally made a 25 ft gap trivial.

If you have magic or are one of two races but not trivial to a human fighter dwarven rogue and half elf (wood) barbarian.
See that’s the problem. It’s trival with magic and a challenge without. That is the whole point of this thread you just made it perfectly.

They have done the same for swimming, darkness, and even hunger and thirst.

Yes. There is a race or two and lots of magic but if you don’t have the race or the magic it is a challenge.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Well, that is part of my nearsightedness, I don't see a disparity gap. So my solution would be to increase the power base of the martial by giving them a much greater chance to do what they do - martial.

I mean, people who don't see the problem shouldn't be the lead designer on creating the solution though right?

I know (think) you are trying to help, but a much more charitable position would be:

"I don't see the disparity and don't really get why this is needed, but it seems an important part of having fun for some people. As long as this new mythic martial class isn't more powerful or versatile than the current Wizard let's get it in."

Again, this is assuming a revamp of spellcasting is off the table.

I get that is what you want. But, as I stated earlier, some people think that might create other problems and then ruin it for those people it was working for.

You stated this but haven't explained why this would be the case. Again, all-caster parties can exist today so adding a mythic martial class that is no more powerful or versatile than the Wizard would do nothing but add a different flavored high level option. How would this ruin things for some people?

The champion and battlemaster would still exist for those that want them. These people appear to be bad citizens that shouldn't be catered to. "I have what I want. If you get what you want, even though it doesn't invalidate any of my other options, I'll take my rubber ball and go home. "

Please explain if this is not so.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's not how our campaigns have ever gone and I don't think you're "debunking" anything by declaring your campaigns have gone that way. We do a lot of dungeons, WOTC has published a large number of dungeons in their published adventures for 5e, and USUALLY there is some pressure on the party to either not rest, or to make it difficult to rest, whenever the party happens to want to do so due to spells running out. Resource management is a major component of all our spellcasters games because that's how these adventures are built (and it makes sense to build them that way not artificially, but because a 5 minute work day is artificial while resting in hostile territory is naturally complicated). Running low on spells happens fairly often because of this, and finding a secure place to rest is a common theme for games in these published adventures.

[Edit - sorry I just realized how old your message is for this thread and how far behind I am in reading it. Feel free to ignore if this is irrelevant to the current conversation.]

I will agree with you that spell management is part of the game. But I do want to go on the flip side of that coin.

If you are adventuring and the wizard drops to 5 hp, and there is no more healing... do the martials just tell them to suck it up and keep moving? Or do your groups usually take one or more of their party members being on death's door as a sign they need to do something to heal their party?

Because I have many times seen people claim that low hp is a balancing point for wizards... but in practice the wizard having low hp has meant that the martials take more damage and drop sooner, because no one can risk the wizard going down. It is the math of group survival.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

See that’s the problem. It’s trival with magic and a challenge without. That is the whole point of this thread you just made it perfectly.

To me this goes back to the breadth issue a bit. If the Wizard could only do AoE and ok single target and transport/movement spells then I wouldn't care if the Wizard helped trivialize the gap. He wouldn't be able to also trivialize combat with a Banish or Force spell or social with a enchantment spell, or stealth with invisibility, etc. So magic still gets to be pretty powerful but more limited in solution space. Wizard is a good but not great combat mage and can spider climb, dimension door, teleport, plane shift, etc. Still pretty good.

 

[Micah Sweet]

yes that's my point, the Doctor doesn't have a rank but he still has a certain level of De Facto authority within the military simply because of who he is, soldiers hear his name and will take orders from him the same as if it were their commanding officer giving them.

Does any of that have to do with being a fighter though? It's not like the Doctor is a fighter. All this stuff could (and logically should) apply to any class.

 

[Chaosmancer]

you might have focused too hard on the specific phrasing of 'military rank' i just couldn't think of a more apropriate term, what i meant was that your name carries weight, people have heard of your deeds and know what you do, you yourself have some level of inherent authority just because of who you are rather than any official designations, think of how the rank and file soldiers followed gandalf's orders in the battle of whitecastle, he wasn't their official leader but he could take command of them because he obviously knew what he was doing in battle, leaders took time out of business to meet him because when gandalf advises you listen to him.

Yeah, I did focus on the military rank.

Honestly... this just doesn't feel like a martial thing to me, this feels like a high level adventurer thing. It is all about being famous for the deeds you have accomplished.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Does any of that have to do with being a fighter though? It's not like the Doctor is a fighter. All this stuff could (and logically should) apply to any class.

It certainly could be anyone, but there seems to be some fantasy genre convention that martials have temporal power. I forget which edition Basic? 1e? said something like Fighters are more likely to rule nations. Fighters had followers, etc. Why? I don't know given the power of spellcasters but the martial as ruler and spellcaster as advisor (sometimes scheming to be ruler but doesn't often get there) is a common fantasy trope. How that gets incorporated into an rpg is trickier.

It's common in supers as well. The more mundane person (batman, etc) often has wealth and standing in society that they can use effectively against the pure power heroes.

 

[nevin]

I think part of the problem is the assumption that a 25 ft gap should be an obstacle that involves multiple checks.

Let's take a 3rd level party. Low level right? How many ways can I cross 25 ft? Plenty. I can cast levitate, misty step, or jump. You can be an eladrin or shadar-kai and teleport. You can be a tabaxi and climb, or a dhampir and spider climb. You can be a druid and wild shape. You can be a fairy or aarakroca and fly. You can be a vhuman with fey-touched and misty step. And I'm SURE I'm missing plenty of options in subclasses and other features. Moral of the story is the game has intentionally made a 25 ft gap trivial. They have done the same for swimming, darkness, and even hunger and thirst.

trivial if you aren't in a hurry. I bet the entire party doesn't have misty step. but thing is it also makes that 25 ft gap trivial for bad guys coming after the party, going through walls etc. If you get stuck on stuff like that and don't use it against the party as well of course it's terrible. But if it's just the way it is and magic exists then it's both a blessing and a curse depending on the situation. Me I love misty step. character steps away from the party, sneaky guy now has a weaker party to attack. If you just don't like useful magic play another game. There are lots of them where your problem and my fun don't exist.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Does any of that have to do with being a fighter though? It's not like the Doctor is a fighter. All this stuff could (and logically should) apply to any class.

Yeah, I did focus on the military rank.

Honestly... this just doesn't feel like a martial thing to me, this feels like a high level adventurer thing. It is all about being famous for the deeds you have accomplished.

while true there's no real reason for this to just apply to fighters/martials at the same time i don't feel like it's still not entirely unjustified for it to be Theirs, and a bit of a callback to older editions where fighters got titles and rank as they levelled up and being the one to be the most relatable to the masses out of the fighting man, magic user, cleric and thief.