D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Minigiant]

True -- no reason to limit all abilities to their speed and movement actions though. That is one of the arbitrary limits to current martials. They always interact with the standard action economy and standard move, AC, attack etc. No reason certain abilities can just say forget that -- you get to do this.

Those are limits on normal folk.

I'vee long stated that I which all martial classed gained bonus speed and reactions with levels.

 

[HammerMan]

I don't remember thinker of blades, but Iron heart was one of the schools of combat so that might be it.

Okay based on this and your list I was wrong. I thought he took Bo9S and just mapped it to the die trick. This was so much more. I think there is a vampire discipline in there.

 

[Tonguez]

My take on Fighter 2 would be

1 - on a Critical Hit the Fighter can choose to impose a Condition in addition to damage included bleeding, blinded, bruised, dazed, dazzled, entangled, exhaustion, shaken, staggered, stunned
*Unconcious/Paralyze
*Frighten

2 - extraordinary Skill use = ’super’ Jumping, charming Persusion, tactical Insight

3 - weapon mastery (add weapon qualities at will) eg a Fighter increases the dice step of their weapon, all weapons can be thrown, all improvised weapons are treated as d6.
Boomerang throw - all thrown weapons bounce back into the heroic fighters hand.

4 - Ability Feats
Strength

Earthquake Stomp​

The Fighter can stomp the ground so furiously that nearby creatures fall prone.

5- extra actions
eg Strike First - Provided he has not acted already, if the Heroic Fighter is attacked he may use his reacton to Strike First with move and attack roll against his opponent regardless of the intiative count. (@Chaosmancer thats how Id do it without teleport)

Blitzkrieg - the Heroic Fighter can dash into a group of enemies and make an attack roll against all targets along the line of his dash which are in his reach (the dash does not need to be in a straight line), the Fighter then rolls damage. All targets who are successfully hit take the same damage and are knocked prone.

6 - stuff
Barrage - A Heroic Archer can use a bonus action to shoot multiple peices of ammunition up into the air and the subsequent action to add more ammunition to the barrage which strikes all targets in range in a 60 ft cone

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not sure this will work out well. The flexibility and power of spellcasters comes from their 1-9 spells which are part of their base. Sub-classes add some flavor and tweak things but that's not where the gonzo comes from. This is perhaps why battle masters didn't get level based maneuvers. Not sure.

I think you need to bake in the gonzo into the main class.

It really would depend on what abilities we consider universal and what would be thematic. Jumps unbound by height can connect to a bunch of different archetypes (Hulk leaps, Wuxia, swinging on a whip, Jedi jumps) while manifesting actual wings is far more niche specific. Thus, most fighters can do amazing leaps but dragon knights can legit fly.

 

[Emberashh]

if it was fighters using supernatural powers that people had wanted i don't think people would've argued aginst you for so long on having our mundane 'power source' of just using training and skill.

there are more than enough existing fighter subclasses who use supernatural means and other supernatural warriors if that's what people actually wanted but it's the ones who don't use magic (and assorted 'not-magics' ki and psionics) who lack and lag behind mechanically that people complain about not being up to par.

Champion and PDK are basically the only ones, subclasses that aren't considered good even on their own merits.

Every other Fighter sub (not to mention nearly every other Martial and martial sub) doesn't have this issue other than the lack of non-combat utility all martials share.

 

[Remathilis]

Champion and PDK are basically the only ones, subclasses that aren't considered good even on their own merits.

Every other Fighter sub (not to mention nearly every other Martial and martial sub) doesn't have this issue other than the lack of non-combat utility all martials share.

Agreed.

I don't think that the fighter is actually hurting much in the combat section. It needs options for sure, but not raw strength or numbers. It's non-combat that it really hurts at. Specifically movement, defense and problem solving tools that are hard in D&D without magic or supernatural abilities. A mythic fighter might be able to slam the ground and knock everyone prone, but it doesn't matter if your opponent is 50 ft in the air raining fireballs on you.

 

[Emberashh]

mythic fighter might be able to slam the ground and knock everyone prone, but it doesn't matter if your opponent is 50 ft in the air raining fireballs on you.

One of the Techniques Ive written for my take on Warriors is Thrown Strike. Incorporating it into your Battle combo gives you increasing throw distance and a high chance to knock prone (I have, atm at least, the same flight rules as in 5e), but you also get bursts of Movement (idea is you're trying to catch it out of the air) to make it easier to recover your weapon.

Which, if you have a weapon made with one of the Rebounding metals, means you can knock flying mobs out of the sky and then run up and gank them when they smack the ground without having to stop and recover your weapon.

Or, you can just do whatever with your free Movement. Very flexible in that way.

And, as it happens, illustrates my point that you don't need magic to fight magic. Even without a Rebounding weapon, you'd only lose an Attack (out of 4 at max level) to recover it, and thats assuming it didn't lodge itself in your target; Im actually contemplating Techniques for turning an impaled weapon into another attack, giving you free recovery and bonus effects, so Warriors especially would be very capable at turning even the loss of their weapon into another way to fight. Sword+board types can already go Captain America with their shields as it is.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It does, but I would suggest this mythic martial class be for those that are ok with extreme supernatural. We've already established that the narrative allows for anything.

You could try to put in some purely physical abilities at each level for those that don't want external effects though. I could see that.

Yeah, have a path emphasizing strength, speed, general toughness, but at crazy levels. That PC variant of legendary resistance someone mentioned would fit well here.

 

[Micah Sweet]

if it was fighters using supernatural powers that people had wanted i don't think people would've argued aginst you for so long on having our mundane 'power source' of just using training and skill.

there are more than enough existing fighter subclasses who use supernatural means and other supernatural warriors if that's what people actually wanted but it's the ones who don't use magic (and assorted 'not-magics' ki and psionics) who lack and lag behind mechanically that people complain about not being up to par.

The argument was that no specific narrative was needed, which is what I was arguing against.

And if you want people who don't use magic not to lag behind, you have to give them abilities that replicate what magic can do, without spells as the implementation. You can do that with subtlety if that's your bag, but my narrative allows for pretty much whatever you want.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So on the concept of the "value" of heavy armor- I don't think it's as big a factor as some might think. Consider first, that any class that doesn't have access to heavy armor has at least some reason to invest in Dexterity.

You could built a pure melee Ranger, of course, but they do have a few skills and features that suggest you might want to invest in Dexterity. Indeed, if you are a pure archer, switch hitter, or stealth enthusiast, you can do without Strength entirely, due to the current game's design.

Some classes are built to reward you more and more for an investment in Dexterity; on a long enough timeline, the Barbarian gets more out of raising Dexterity than they would out of investing in armor.

Even a caster class can find value in having a decent initiative bonus.

But even if you invest in the Strength required to wear heavy armor, you've shouldered the financial burden, and are perfectly fine with the penalty to Stealth, the end result is, by endgame, you have an AC 1 higher than most characters. A Mage Armor using caster can gain the same benefit for the trivial use of a 1st-level spell slot. A Monk or Barbarian can even exceed the benefit granted by heavy armor.

This puts heavy armor in a strange place where it's most valuable at low levels, where you can't afford the best heavy armors, pulls ahead at medium levels, but at high levels has a small benefit (with a hindrance attached) or can even be left behind.

Now granted, there is the issue of "what if we're using point buy? Points saved on Dexterity can be spent elsewhere" or "what about ASI's? ASI's not spent on off stats can be used to gain feats!".

But it's worth noting that, regardless of what most tables do, point buy and Feats are actually options- options that the game's design supposedly doesn't even take into account (according to WotC themselves). And further, we see that when options like Multiclassing and Feats are on the table, it's not especially hard to acquire heavy armor if you do want it.

Even worse, racial options exist like the Tortle, who gain a natural AC of 17, almost as good as the best armor in the game, which, with the downfall of racial ability scores, means high AC is within anyone's reach, if they're ok with being a turtle man!

My takeaway here is twofold; if you are "budgeting" heavy armor for a new class, it's not actually worth very much, when compared to, say 1e/2e, as it currently exists.

Which, to me, means that if heavy armor is seriously meant to be a major draw for the classes intended to use it, it needs to be better than it currently is.

I personally very much wish heavy armor was a more viable choice. Maybe one of the paths can have a "juggernaut" vibe that gives DR and thp if you wear heavy armor. I would probably grant resistance or immunity to forced movement as well, just to stay on brand.