D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Minigiant]

My biggest concern is that cool things that a character can do becomes codified as class abilities unnecessarily. Leading to the 3e issue of not being able to do cool things

The problem is everyone cannot agree what "cool things" are so martial can't do them.

I've tried to cut through a construct of magical force under 5 DMs.

Got 5 different answers from Yes to No and 5 different reasonings

edit: cannot

 

[Aldarc]

I actually dipped out of the conversation for a bit when the talk was all about combat numbers because Fighters can contribute in combat thanks to good damage and decent durability. The problem is that the class has basically no tools for anything that isn't a straight up brawl. They can't circumvent unusual circumstances well, they are bad saving throw wise against anything not str/con based, and have nothing to help in the social or exploration pillars. If the fighter was the undisputed master of the combat pillar maybe you could argue that it is warranted, but I don't think the fighter is soooo good at it that it makes up for the complete lack of ability in the others.

Since combat essentially serves as the primary or foremost pillar of the game, every class is meant to be effective or contribute in meaningful ways in combat. Outside of combat, however, that design paradigm changes. There may be three pillars of the game, but not every pillar is supported equally nor is every class able to contribute to these pillars to the same degree, much as you say here.

 

[Garthanos]

Take the first part that because it isnt passive and rather something you would chose to do and could happen frequently and requires you to be the absolute highest level aka where the story is supposed to be legendary and even mythic

I also don’t know many dudes in my gym that could kill 9 people in six seconds with individual attacks,

People do not know many but they exist and they are nowhere near legendary, I have seen a teen in real life who could put 9 arrows in target in 6 seconds with full draw attacks (snap shots are even faster) and she really could be at your gym and videos and competitions exist showing this is more than a bit real. Sure she does not do this in a actual battle environment while under fire but I do not consider that even approaching mythic or legendary. Sword strokes take less time than an archers draw and fire, partly because one can lead into the other if enemies are crowding into you. The fighter is slow compared to a real life person which in the game story is not supposed to be high level.

An average football player according to the statistics I have read can standing broad jump 10 feet, ... in other words in 5e he has a 20 strength... but that is a 5e characters strongest again not mythical and not legendary.

People have fallen out of airplanes and walked themselves to the hospital in real life ... it can happen too. However... in spite of what was said we do still have to go beyond gym references and we do have to sometimes compare to the casters and to legendaries and myths the low level wizard spell just saved the entire party from any height fall no damage at all which is far more impressive and in some ways more likely to happen than one individual falling and merely surviving.

What would I want to see for a start, out of a Legendary and mythic athlete would include athletics / acrobatics to prevent falling damage at all, archery shots to pin a falling target to a cliff wall and leaping down faster than a falling ally and catching them or leaping many many times more than the football players.3

Using your limited understanding of the skills of your guy down the block to decide what is possible is part of my complaint we do not agree on what should be possible outside of the strict combat arena, by those who are slaying giant sometimes flying and fire breathing, heavily armored intelligent beasts the size of houses with a short piece of metal.

 

[Campbell]

And yet is turns out more people want to play this class than any other. So maybe the cynicism in this thread and contempt for the fighter demonstrated by ‘dude in a gym’ should be reconsidered.

I also don’t know many dudes in my gym that could kill 9 people in six seconds with individual attacks, after falling off a 200 foot tall building.

That's where the ludonarrative dissonance comes from when they are also incapable of doing things an average collegiate track and field athlete is more than capable of.

 

[ph0rk]

There may be three pillars of the game, but not every pillar is supported equally nor is every class able to contribute to these pillars to the same degree, much as you say here.

Which does seem to be design intent but it it feels weird, especially since it is hard to know how much particular pillars will be emphasized at particular tables, the vagueness around stuff like perception/investigation, and so on. I'm playing in a game now that was billed as "definitely not dungeon crawls" that has been, so far, dungeon crawls but maybe light on the traps.

If you go out of your way to build for some of that (skill expert for double prof in investigation) you might realize four or five sessions latter there has only ever been one check, or if instead you add it to perception the DCs are all tailored with character skills in mind (since, as many have argued again and again in this very thread, the DM placing their thumb on the scales is how balance should happen). Of course, spending resources in this way costs the fighter other customization, and it is quite easy to end up with a build that is tailored for social or exploration stuff that gets used rarely or in a group where they are still outclasses in those pillars, but others contribute similarly to combat.

That's where the ludonarrative dissonance comes from when they are also incapable of doing things an average collegiate track and field athlete is more than capable of.

Even if they build for it, e.g. expertise in athletics. A sort of specialization that starts to feel quite lackluster once Huge and Gargantuan enemies show up (and you can kiss grappling goodbye unless you really focus on it with Rune Knight or a caster feels pity and casts enlarge) and everyone else can fly, teleport, or levitate, and breathe underwater.

 

[Garthanos]

The problem is everyone can agree what "cool things" are so martial can't do them.

I've tried to cut through a construct of magical force under 5 DMs.

Got 5 different answers from Yes to No and 5 different reasoning

Agreed, a games job includes helping create common expectations ... it is not happening here.

 

[Garthanos]

Even if they build for it, e.g. expertise in athletics. A sort of specialization that starts to feel quite lackluster once Huge and Gargantuan enemies show up (and you can kiss grappling goodbye unless you really focus on it with Rune Knight or a caster feels pity and casts enlarge) and everyone else can fly, teleport, or levitate, and breathe underwater.

Specialization is a bane indeed but when things are getting mythic perhaps you have to give herakles the ability to see death and raise the recently dead by wrestling.

 

[Campbell]

Specialization is a bane indeed but when things are getting mythic perhaps you have to give herakles the ability to see death and raise the recently dead by wrestling.

View attachment cfzcqj1rhdd61.jpg

 

[ph0rk]

Specialization is a bane indeed but when things are getting mythic perhaps you have to give herakles the ability to see death and raise the recently dead by wrestling.

You joke, but it would be awful nice if you could at least cover the mouth of a caster, maybe after grappling and shoving prone. Either that or hold their hands flat (so no somatic) - but not both at the same time. I guess you can apply manacles, although, there are no rules for applying them, and of course while you are busy doing that your target can simply misty step (or dimension door! or thunder step!) to safety.

 

[Minigiant]

Agreed, a games job includes helping create common expectations ... it is not happening here.

One of the things that D&D does not do is make a common expectation for anything but low level action and magic.