D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[MichaelSomething]

but they didn't build the damn thing out of improv and thin air, there's some kind of design intent! If you communicate the design intent, and breaking point to look for, it's WAY easier for a DM to modulate things to their liking with confidence!

I thought the whole point of 5E was to have as little design intent as possible so that DMs would run things out of improv and thin air?

 

[ph0rk]

Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

What does it say about the ratio of short to long rests there?

It is entirely possible, as the DMG and PHB are written, to have many adventuring days - if not all at a particular table! - with no short rests. This is bad design, and not pointing out the potential issues that may arise - specifically - is an error.

The alternative is to not sprinkle different amounts of short vs long rest resources across classes and subclasses.

 

[Oofta]

What does it say about the ratio of short to long rests there?

It is entirely possible, as the DMG and PHB are written, to have many adventuring days - if not all at a particular table! - with no short rests. This is bad design, and not pointing out the potential issues that may arise - specifically - is an error.

The alternative is to not sprinkle different amounts of short vs long rest resources across classes and subclasses.

Yep, you caught me. I didn't quote the text that directly follows the XP budget option.

Short Rests​

In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.​

As far as long rests, I have no idea what you're saying. By default you get one per day at most and cannot benefit from more than one in a 24 hour period. What else would they need to say?

As far as extra labels, the style is not that of a technical manual. Whether they leaned too far into natural language in an attempt to not mimic previous editions is a matter of preference. I don't think they did. If you can't figure out which classes benefit most from short and long rests based on whether they regain abilities after short or long rests I'm not sure what to say. Why "sprinkle" game-speak into text that explicitly avoids game-speak?

 

[ph0rk]

It would have been quite simple in the section on alternate rest durations to mention that the ratio of 2-3 SR to 1 LR was important for game balance.

Are you arguing that any DM should be able to figure it out (clearly not true - take a gander at any forum for new players and DMs) or that deviating from the ratio is not a problem?

In fact, it's so rare for this to be followed I often have to ask if a particular table takes short rests - because some don't.

 

[tetrasodium]

Its not explicitly mentioned, but there is something that sorta implies it in the Multipart Encounter section.

To be fair, changing the rest schedule affects a lot of things from how many spells & abilities with durations change in value to magic item recharging & short rest vrs long rest interclass balance is thrown off. The dmg basically avoids mention of that kinda stuff. Some f it like recharging & possibly even ability duration/value a skilled gm can figure out pretty easily & even a newer less skilled gm can probably figure out something with ok results. That interclass balance & how to rethread the needle after changing the needle with the rest variants is not a trivial or hard to screw up matter , the dmg doesn't even touch on it,

I thought the whole point of 5E was to have as little design intent as possible so that DMs would run things out of improv and thin air?

That only goes so far & there are a lot of design choices chasing after simplification & half baked options void of detail on using or even the intent behind them that ultimately make that excessively complicated. Past editions of d&d had a ton of that kind of stuff going into RAI & details on crunch so it's not some kind of pie in the sky "look at what some other company does" type thing.

 

[Undrave]

You mean things like?
Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day. If the adventure has more easy encounters, the adventurers can get through more. If it has more deadly encounters, they can handle fewer.

Short Rests​

In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

It doesn't really addresses the impact of changing the number of rests or the ratio. It's just "you should have this number of encounters a day" or "this number of rests" but it doesn't really explains what to look out for if you deviate from this.

 

[Gammadoodler]

They are within existing mechanics. The PhB explicitly says grapple and shove are not exhaustive. Players can take skill or stat contests to achieve effects. That is in the rules of 5e

View attachment 137188
It’s adjudicated by the DM, but so is everything in 5e.

If you’re frustrated that you don’t have options in combat first look and see if this is an element in your game. If it isn’t maybe think a bit more creatively.

Casters aren’t as good as martials at these abilities because generally they don’t have the athletics or acrobatics to perform them as well. Neither can the benefit from the follow up attacks you can take afterwards.

So the wizard uses mage hand to throw sand in the Orcs face (debatable as it could be considered an attack). Then what does he do to follow up? Go toe to toe with shocking grasp? Mage hand has a 10lb limit which seriously cramps your style when flipping a table.

Wait..so your argument here appears to be that because that list is 'not exhaustive', everything that isn't included in that list is actually included in the mechanics????? What??

You can see that this is a dumb argument right?

 

[Sithlord]

I've played every edition but 4e.

Just winging balance is not, at all, what we should expect from the premier system in tabletop RPGs. And it is quite clear if you dig into discussions people have about the game. Short rest heavy classes in particular result in people grousing because their tables don't have many short rests and/or they have 5 minute adventuring days where the long rest casters can unload with no reservations. The very creator of this thread has argued as much.

Resource attrition that works differently for different classes needs to be spelled out, neatly and cleanly, in both the DMG and the PHB. It could take a few sentences in the DMG and as little text as "this is a primarily short rest class/subclass" in the PHB and supplements.

They didn't do it.

There is no such game. DM’s being balance through experience. And they gave a pretty darn good guide for general things. They can’t hold out hands for everything and do everything in a few hundred pages. I’ve not seen a game this diverse anywhere that has such good guidelines.

 

[ph0rk]

DM’s being balance through experience.

That isn't how you sell a system, and selling a system (specifically, books in that system) is their business.

If DM fiat is required to nudge the scales into balance, the system is poorly designed.

 

[Sithlord]

That isn't how you sell a system, and selling a system (specifically, books in that system) is their business.

If DM fiat is required to nudge the scales into balance, the system is poorly designed.

Seems to be selling pretty well for the last seven years.