D&D (2024) Memorize Spell is one of the most obnoxious abilities I've ever seen, despite being perfectly on-theme (Packet 7)

[mellored]

I can think of two legit reasons:

1) If your main PC is a Wizard.

2) If you're exploiting the hilariously OP 1-level dip in Wizard letting you learn any Wizard spell you have a slot high enough to cast. So say you're Bard-11 or Cleric-11 and Wizard-1, you can learn any Wizard spell.

Not in this playtest.

Also, does it say somewhere that scrolls are easily found? Because if the DM never hands you water breathing, you can't swap to it.

Also. They can reduce the number of spells known if it's a bit much.

 

[Scribe]

Cool. Make sure to ask Raistlin whether he finds using magic fatiguing. Since you couldn't come up with any examples.

Examples of how he needed to rest, and memorize spells? I mean it's been a long time, but yes that happened.

 

[DavyGreenwind]

That's just not been my experience at all, and whilst obviously I've only seen what I've seen, most groups seem to be considerably more liberal with spell slots than you're describing, particularly when they're not the highest-level slot they have.

My experience is that a single spell slot is NOT enough of a downside/deterrent, when the Wizard gets to basically single-handedly bypass a major obstacle, and be a Big Damn Hero to the rest of the party.

Re: Charm spells, I've been avoiding mention social situations as examples because I do agree that because they have a narrative downside (again, unlike the majority of Wizard utility spells), they're more akin to Knock. Wizards do tend to "cede the floor" in social situations to a character with Persuasion or the like, precisely because their magic has a downside in addition to the cost.

What you're doing by mentioning them though, is reinforcing the point that counter to your assertion re: spell slots, they're not enough to dissuade people. But spell slot + narrative downside IS enough. Which is exactly what someone pointed out earlier.

Yeah, I get that. Different experiences. I try to give my players a few encounters in a row sometimes to really tax those resources. It probably really makes a difference depending on the level as well.

I'm curious, what's an example of a spell you believe steps on the toes of skill-based classes?

I did have one experience where Locate Creature made our Ranger pretty salty. But that was still after the Ranger failed the check.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

Huh. So makes Wizards actually playable without all of that awful prep casting, but more obnoxiously overpowered.

So here's the thing. I get that it's frustrating to have the wrong spells prepared, or to on occasion forget to prepare a spell or two that could be situationally useful. But guess what? That's the trade off for having the best spell list in the game. Would I prefer it if they kept the arcane, primal, and divine lists and re-balanced all the classes to be distinct through their actual abilities instead? Yes. But apparently people didn't like that. So here we are back to class lists. The justification for that objectively stupid decision? The claimed that they got feedback that the Arcane list "watered down wizard class identity". I can accept this as reasonable criticism, but if I do, I then posit an argument that occasionally preparing the wrong spell list is part of the wizard class identity. It is a feature of the rules, even if it feels frustrating for players.

You know what sorcerers are frustrated over? Not getting access to awesome utility spells or other thematically appropriate spells even though it should logically make sense for their subclass and in any sane world they would get Origin spells. Ever tried playing a storm sorcerer without Call Lightning? It sucks. Ever wanted to play a sorcerer who focuses on enchantments and illusions? Good luck finding a suitable subclass or even spells that fit that for each spell level. Even stuff sorcerers [allegedly] excel at can feel lackluster compared to a wizard at times. Sculpt spells rocks for blasting. So does Overchannel. And have you ever tried playing any element that wasn't fire or lightning? Good luck finding proper spell support. God forbid you try to pick green dragon with so many monsters immune to poison. Did you go to the store and buy that fancy new splat book you heard had some awesome new spells in it? Hope you rolled wizard because you're sure as heck not getting them as a sorcerer like 75% of the time unless your DM is really nice. Want to ritual cast as a sorcerer? Tough. You can't. No I don't care if your spells have the ritual tag. Nor do I care if literally every other full caster gets it (at least by 2014 rules). Them's the breaks.

Ever played a warlock who didn't want to use Eldritch blast? Sure it's possible, but definitely not optimal. Want to play a bard that doesn't use charm spells? Hope you're Lore or otherwise you're going to have a bad time. Ever thought it would be cool to play an artificer that summons flame turrets and blows people up with fire? Hope you're patient enough to get to level 9 before you can use that fireball spell the wizard got 4 levels earlier.

The point I'm getting at is that every class has things that make them feel frustrating. You know what's frustrating for the wizard? Occasionally preparing the wrong spell, and if you want literally every spell on your list it'll cost you a few weeks and a small fortune. Such a shame. Dripping sarcasm aside, my biggest issue with Memorize Spell isn't even what the OP is mentioning in this thread. Yes. I think he is objectively correct in that this will basically make wizards never have to prepare any utility (or even situational) spells ever again. I do think this can create some balance issues.

What I hate about this ability is that it completely flies in the face of the very concept of the wizard: he's the nerd that before going on an adventure should want to hit up the locals or the library to investigate what potential threats that local cave he and his meatshields...err...adventuring companions in order to have some idea of what spells might be useful to prep going in. Playing a wizard should require actual thought. This quite literally is the entire theme of the class. Now don't get me wrong, it's a balancing act. I shouldn't have the wizard player pulling their hair out in frustration and arguing with the party to "come back tomorrow" just because the easiest solution to a puzzle is to levitate a bolder and the wizard decided that invisibility would be a better choice. Nor should the party be forced to sleep in a dangerous cave for a night simply so the wizard can prepare a knock spell to open the magically sealed door with no keyhole. Frankly, I myself would argue that those situations are in reality an indication of a poor DM, but that's a whole other topic of debate. What we need is for the prepared casters (no, not just the wizard. ALL prepared casters) to be able to pull a utility spell out of their backside if need be to keep the party from having to take an early long rest. That's it. Even then, though, I'd still argue that learned casters should probably be able to switch out a spell known on a long rest as a balancing compensating. It's a shame we almost had that ability in Tasha's but it got cut.

But again, that's a tangent. Back to the wizard/prepared casters...

Yeah 30 minutes or a short rest or something would mean you had to seriously think about it, in a lot of situations. 1 minute? Pffft.

I'd much prefer 1/short rest, instant, so you could use it in combat too, but so it wasn't as obnoxious outside of combat.

Right here we have our solution. Or at least the concept of one. We can argue about semantics if we wish. After all this is a gaming forum. Personally I think it should be "At the end of a short rest, you can switch out one of your prepared spells for another spell in your book." Having the party take a lunch break is far more reasonable than coming back the next day, and this let's your party have that fancy utility spell the wizard felt "wasn't worth preparing". It even allows you to switch out that fireball for a lightning bolt mid dungeon if you know you're about to go fight a fire elemental in the next room. Hardly worthless. Yet it what it does prevent is the outright slaughter of the core concept of the wizard actually putting some forethought and, god forbid, effort and planning behind their power to bend and shape reality itself to their whims. You know... the power they [allegedly] learned by spending hours studying books, practicing magic, and again, gods forbid, learning math and physics!

 

[Micah Sweet]

So here's the thing. I get that it's frustrating to have the wrong spells prepared, or to on occasion forget to prepare a spell or two that could be situationally useful. But guess what? That's the trade off for having the best spell list in the game. Would I prefer it if they kept the arcane, primal, and divine lists and re-balanced all the classes to be distinct through their actual abilities instead? Yes. But apparently people didn't like that. So here we are back to class lists. The justification for that objectively stupid decision? The claimed that they got feedback that the Arcane list "watered down wizard class identity". I can accept this as reasonable criticism, but if I do, I then posit an argument that occasionally preparing the wrong spell list is part of the wizard class identity. It is a feature of the rules, even if it feels frustrating for players.

You know what sorcerers are frustrated over? Not getting access to awesome utility spells or other thematically appropriate spells even though it should logically make sense for their subclass and in any sane world they would get Origin spells. Ever tried playing a storm sorcerer without Call Lightning? It sucks. Ever wanted to play a sorcerer who focuses on enchantments and illusions? Good luck finding a suitable subclass or even spells that fit that for each spell level. Even stuff sorcerers [allegedly] excel at can feel lackluster compared to a wizard at times. Sculpt spells rocks for blasting. So does Overchannel. And have you ever tried playing any element that wasn't fire or lightning? Good luck finding proper spell support. God forbid you try to pick green dragon with so many monsters immune to poison. Did you go to the store and buy that fancy new splat book you heard had some awesome new spells in it? Hope you rolled wizard because you're sure as heck not getting them as a sorcerer like 75% of the time unless your DM is really nice. Want to ritual cast as a sorcerer? Tough. You can't. No I don't care if your spells have the ritual tag. Nor do I care if literally every other full caster gets it (at least by 2014 rules). Them's the breaks.

Ever played a warlock who didn't want to use Eldritch blast? Sure it's possible, but definitely not optimal. Want to play a bard that doesn't use charm spells? Hope you're Lore or otherwise you're going to have a bad time. Ever thought it would be cool to play an artificer that summons flame turrets and blows people up with fire? Hope you're patient enough to get to level 9 before you can use that fireball spell the wizard got 4 levels earlier.

The point I'm getting at is that every class has things that make them feel frustrating. You know what's frustrating for the wizard? Occasionally preparing the wrong spell, and if you want literally every spell on your list it'll cost you a few weeks and a small fortune. Such a shame. Dripping sarcasm aside, my biggest issue with Memorize Spell isn't even what the OP is mentioning in this thread. Yes. I think he is objectively correct in that this will basically make wizards never have to prepare any utility (or even situational) spells ever again. I do think this can create some balance issues.

What I hate about this ability is that it completely flies in the face of the very concept of the wizard: he's the nerd that before going on an adventure should want to hit up the locals or the library to investigate what potential threats that local cave he and his meatshields...err...adventuring companions in order to have some idea of what spells might be useful to prep going in. Playing a wizard should require actual thought. This quite literally is the entire theme of the class. Now don't get me wrong, it's a balancing act. I shouldn't have the wizard player pulling their hair out in frustration and arguing with the party to "come back tomorrow" just because the easiest solution to a puzzle is to levitate a bolder and the wizard decided that invisibility would be a better choice. Nor should the party be forced to sleep in a dangerous cave for a night simply so the wizard can prepare a knock spell to open the magically sealed door with no keyhole. Frankly, I myself would argue that those situations are in reality an indication of a poor DM, but that's a whole other topic of debate. What we need is for the prepared casters (no, not just the wizard. ALL prepared casters) to be able to pull a utility spell out of their backside if need be to keep the party from having to take an early long rest. That's it. Even then, though, I'd still argue that learned casters should probably be able to switch out a spell known on a long rest as a balancing compensating. It's a shame we almost had that ability in Tasha's but it got cut.

But again, that's a tangent. Back to the wizard/prepared casters...



Right here we have our solution. Or at least the concept of one. We can argue about semantics if we wish. After all this is a gaming forum. Personally I think it should be "At the end of a short rest, you can switch out one of your prepared spells for another spell in your book." Having the party take a lunch break is far more reasonable than coming back the next day, and this let's your party have that fancy utility spell the wizard felt "wasn't worth preparing". It even allows you to switch out that fireball for a lightning bolt mid dungeon if you know you're about to go fight a fire elemental in the next room. Hardly worthless. Yet it what it does prevent is the outright slaughter of the core concept of the wizard actually putting some forethought and, god forbid, effort and planning behind their power to bend and shape reality itself to their whims. You know... the power they [allegedly] learned by spending hours studying books, practicing magic, and again, gods forbid, learning math and physics!

Many players don't want to have to work or plan for their success, and they definitely don't want to be frustrated at any point. They just want everything they do to succeed, in lieu of being able to immediately try again when you fail (like in a video game). WotC has been accommodating this type of player more and more, to the real detriment of the game IMO.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not in this playtest.

Also, does it say somewhere that scrolls are easily found? Because if the DM never hands you water breathing, you can't swap to it.

Also. They can reduce the number of spells known if it's a bit much.

Buddy, please follow the conversation, this was in reference to BG3, not this playtest.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah, I get that. Different experiences. I try to give my players a few encounters in a row sometimes to really tax those resources. It probably really makes a difference depending on the level as well.

I'm curious, what's an example of a spell you believe steps on the toes of skill-based classes?

I did have one experience where Locate Creature made our Ranger pretty salty. But that was still after the Ranger failed the check.

I mean, most the utility spells I've mentioned do. It's not just skill-based characters either - they tend to do the same to like druids, people with animals that can do stuff, people with non-skill-based special abilities, even other spellcasters who have lesser utility abilities (and still have to prep them, whilst the Wizard can just the forehead L at them)!

I mean just look at level 2 Wizard spells as someone else pointed out:

• Knock/Arcane Lock - Less bad because the boom is a problem
• Alter Self - Totally invalidates all disguise-related skills and tool proficiencies, which is pretty wild for a single level 2 spell
• Borrowed Knowledge - Literally choose any skill, you now have it - unlikely to invalidate a skill-based character who has the same because they likely have the stat too, but worth mentioning
• Detect Thoughts - Like Insight but a thousand times more powerful even on surface scan mode - going deeper does have drawback, at least, but still very strong, especially with a smart player and a realistic DM
• Enlarge/Reduce - Incredible utility spell - doesn't typically replace skills directly but does become the crux of plans pretty easily
• Invisibility - Stealth, in many cases, particularly out of combat. Let's not get into the full Invisibility debate but it's undeniable that this is an issue. Often cast on PCs who have good Stealth, to be fair.
• Levitate - Climbing skills, typically, again can easily allows the PCs in general to skip over something challenging by levitating a heavy object.
• Locate object - Rarely replaces specific singular skills, often replaces entire plans - absolutely huge potential and I've seen it used well
• Misty Step - Can replace entire plans, climbing, athletics, acrobatics, lockpicking, strength checks and so on. Mitigated by it and relatives being increasingly common so it's probably not only the Wizard.
• Phantasmal Force - I mean, where to start lol.
• Rope trick - Again can form entire plans around it, can make climbing trivial and so on by giving you a perfectly anchored rope etc.
• Spider Climb - I hopefully don't have to explain this one, which invalidates entire character builds trivially.

That's just level 2 spells.

Now, I'm not saying all of them are criminal or need to be changed or whatever, but I am pointing out that Wizards have access to completely insane utility, much of which obviates other character abilities (particularly by not needing rolls), so giving them even better access to that is really ridiculous. Right now, a level 12 Wizard can prepare 17 spells. So if they wanted all that 2nd level utility, they'd need to prepare most/all of those spells 12 spells - that's be the majority of their spellbook.

Huge opportunity cost and it's why Wizards don't do it.

Memorize Spell completely removes the opportunity cost because you can just not memorize them and drag them out as needed. If you really need one in combat, sure, you need to prepare it - but you usually don't, for any of these spells except Misty Step.

Do I need to extend to level 1 and 3 and 4 and so on? We're talking dozens of spells. Sure most Wizards won't have most of them, but even having some proportion means they've effectively dodged that designed-in opportunity cost entirely and have huge bonus utility.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think a good design would be to keep the feature, but build on Arcane Recovery.

- At 10th level, when you use Arcane Recovery, you can also switch spells for another one in you spellbook. The spell must be of the same level as your regained spellslots.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I mean, most the utility spells I've mentioned do. It's not just skill-based characters either - they tend to do the same to like druids, people with animals that can do stuff, people with non-skill-based special abilities, even other spellcasters who have lesser utility abilities (and still have to prep them, whilst the Wizard can just the forehead L at them)!

I mean just look at level 2 Wizard spells as someone else pointed out:

• Knock/Arcane Lock - Less bad because the boom is a problem
• Alter Self - Totally invalidates all disguise-related skills and tool proficiencies, which is pretty wild for a single level 2 spell
• Borrowed Knowledge - Literally choose any skill, you now have it - unlikely to invalidate a skill-based character who has the same because they likely have the stat too, but worth mentioning
• Detect Thoughts - Like Insight but a thousand times more powerful even on surface scan mode - going deeper does have drawback, at least, but still very strong, especially with a smart player and a realistic DM
• Enlarge/Reduce - Incredible utility spell - doesn't typically replace skills directly but does become the crux of plans pretty easily
• Invisibility - Stealth, in many cases, particularly out of combat. Let's not get into the full Invisibility debate but it's undeniable that this is an issue. Often cast on PCs who have good Stealth, to be fair.
• Levitate - Climbing skills, typically, again can easily allows the PCs in general to skip over something challenging by levitating a heavy object.
• Locate object - Rarely replaces specific singular skills, often replaces entire plans - absolutely huge potential and I've seen it used well
• Misty Step - Can replace entire plans, climbing, athletics, acrobatics, lockpicking, strength checks and so on. Mitigated by it and relatives being increasingly common so it's probably not only the Wizard.
• Phantasmal Force - I mean, where to start lol.
• Rope trick - Again can form entire plans around it, can make climbing trivial and so on by giving you a perfectly anchored rope etc.
• Spider Climb - I hopefully don't have to explain this one, which invalidates entire character builds trivially.

That's just level 2 spells.

Now, I'm not saying all of them are criminal or need to be changed or whatever, but I am pointing out that Wizards have access to completely insane utility, much of which obviates other character abilities (particularly by not needing rolls), so giving them even better access to that is really ridiculous. Right now, a level 12 Wizard can prepare 17 spells. So if they wanted all that 2nd level utility, they'd need to prepare most/all of those spells 12 spells - that's be the majority of their spellbook.

Huge opportunity cost and it's why Wizards don't do it.

Memorize Spell completely removes the opportunity cost because you can just not memorize them and drag them out as needed. If you really need one in combat, sure, you need to prepare it - but you usually don't, for any of these spells except Misty Step.

Do I need to extend to level 1 and 3 and 4 and so on? We're talking dozens of spells. Sure most Wizards won't have most of them, but even having some proportion means they've effectively dodged that designed-in opportunity cost entirely and have huge bonus utility.

This is where experience varies. Now, I get that you may have more actual game time than I, I rarely see wizards take these spells. Except for Misty Step.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is where experience varies. Now, I get that you may have more actual game time than I, I rarely see wizards take these spells. Except for Misty Step.

That's not experience varying - that's similar to mine, but illustrates my point.

I agree that Wizards don't prepare those spells that often - because in 5E, you can't memorize/prepare that many spells. Thus narrow-usage utility spells tend not to get memorized unless there's a specific perceived need for them.

That's a feature not a bug. It reduces how dominant Wizards can be in the exploration and social pillars.

What Memorize Spell as per UA Packet 7 would do is make so you never needed to memorize any of these spells, but had relatively quick access to all of them (that were in your spellbook, anyway). Suddenly all these narrow-usage spells that can negate entire other characters or skillsets or abilities even needing to exist (particularly but not exclusively Rogues) would be available for use, particularly because most 2nd level combat spells kind of suck (sorry Chromatic Orb etc., but you do).