D&D (2024) Memorize Spell is one of the most obnoxious abilities I've ever seen, despite being perfectly on-theme (Packet 7)

[Shardstone]

Just combine the cleric and wizard into a mage and be done with it.

 

[Willie the Duck]

That's just not been my experience at all, and whilst obviously I've only seen what I've seen, most groups seem to be considerably more liberal with spell slots than you're describing, particularly when they're not the highest-level slot they have.

My experience is that a single spell slot is NOT enough of a downside/deterrent, when the Wizard gets to basically single-handedly bypass a major obstacle, and be a Big Damn Hero to the rest of the party.

I think a big part of this is level two spells. There's a whole host of spells (alter self, darkvision, detect thoughts, enlarge/reduce, invisibility, levitate, locate object, misty step, see invisibility, spider climb, etc.) which that bypass an entire challenge and/or mimic someone else's forte (but without failure-chance) that come online at a mere level 3, and where people regularly play up to levels where a single such spell slot becomes relatively trivial --ex. at 8th level, a wizard gets 12 levelled spells (more with arcane recovery), a single 2nd level spell slot starts becoming a minor expense (but the problems they solve still come up). Add in that at level 2 you aren't competing with too many iconic non-utility spells (no shield, magic missile, fireball, etc., and a 2nd level slot doesn't wildly improve most 1st level spells either).

Re: Charm spells, I've been avoiding mention social situations as examples because I do agree that because they have a narrative downside (again, unlike the majority of Wizard utility spells), they're more akin to Knock. Wizards do tend to "cede the floor" in social situations to a character with Persuasion or the like, precisely because their magic has a downside in addition to the cost.

What you're doing by mentioning them though, is reinforcing the point that counter to your assertion re: spell slots, they're not enough to dissuade people. But spell slot + narrative downside IS enough. Which is exactly what someone pointed out earlier.

I think these would be a good way to handle more of these -- the spell exists and it does solve a problem; but there is a cost, constraint, or limitation alongside the spell slot that comprises the opportunity cost.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

You can call me names like "hubristic", and sure, whatever man,

You... calling out someone else for calling someone names? That's rich. The contempt and hostility I see from you every day I read these forums, against designers, against people you disagree with, just wigs me out. But I'd rather know who is saying what rather than block them.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Magic is fatiguing? There is no context for this within the modern game. Casting spells actually has zero cost to the caster.

I'd refer to you the wealth of material published around Dragonlance.

Or Dying Earth. However, I think the point was intended to be that outside the context of the books that initially inspired EGG's spell system or the novels directly stemming from his resultant game, there aren't a lot of iconic fictional magic users who use that model. Whether a a fatigue model is all that much more common (outside of tv shows and such, where it's easy to depict), I'm not sure (I'd say the grand majority just don't have magic be quite as overall convenient--slower to cast, more constrained to a single theme per caster, etc.; or just intended to be just-that-good which is fine because only the primary pro-/antagonists are the magic users and the supporting cast aren't being played by other players at the game-table).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You... calling out someone else for calling someone names? That's rich. The contempt and hostility I see from you every day I read these forums, against designers, against people you disagree with, just wigs me out. But I'd rather know who is saying what rather than block them.

You realize that you just made a purely hypocritical post, right?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think a big part of this is level two spells. There's a whole host of spells (alter self, darkvision, detect thoughts, enlarge/reduce, invisibility, levitate, locate object, misty step, see invisibility, spider climb, etc.) which that bypass an entire challenge and/or mimic someone else's forte (but without failure-chance) that come online at a mere level 3, and where people regularly play up to levels where a single such spell slot becomes relatively trivial --ex. at 8th level, a wizard gets 12 levelled spells (more with arcane recovery), a single 2nd level spell slot starts becoming a minor expense (but the problems they solve still come up). Add in that at level 2 you aren't competing with too many iconic non-utility spells (no shield, magic missile, fireball, etc., and a 2nd level slot doesn't wildly improve most 1st level spells either).

That's a very interesting point. I hadn't considered how the locus of problems is on 2nd level spells, but it is.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

You realize that you just made a purely hypocritical post, right?

I can certainly see that perspective. Calling out hypocrisy must make me a hypocrite. Convenient logic. But the admins' policies are right. I should be quiet and not say a word. It's not my job. You be you.

 

[Incenjucar]

Gotta stop using the term "Vancian" for D&D magic, that's for sure.

 

[Dausuul]

I think this is a case where the issue isn't so much the ability itself but what the ability's being stacked on top of. Being able to access any spell in their book given a bit of study time seems quite thematic for the Wizard- I'd argue more so than being able to access a dozen spells at 6 seconds notice. But if the developers aren't willing to tone down the number of spells available at 6 seconds notice, then even otherwise thematic improvements to the flexibility of spell preparation start to seem like too much.

Now that idea I like. If wizards had a very limited set of prepared spells -- like, fewer than a 2014 sorcerer -- but could swap them around with 1 minute of study, it would really heighten the wizard's flavor while at the same time putting reasonable limits on them. Yes, you are the king of utility magic, but what combat magic did you swap out that you're going to wish you had when a monster bursts through the door?

 

[Umbran]

You... calling out someone else for calling someone names? That's rich. The contempt and hostility I see from you every day I read these forums, against designers, against people you disagree with, just wigs me out. But I'd rather know who is saying what rather than block them.

You realize that you just made a purely hypocritical post, right?

Mod note:
Both of you are cruising to get ejected from this discussion.

How about you both stop making this personal? Immediately, if not sooner. Thanks.