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Monk - what do you like and dislike?
- Thread starter TheLe
- Start date
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Klaus said:
I love that film. I really love it
alternatives
Wait a minute, lets re-break down the math
18 str fighter with weapon focus using a greatsword at lvl 1:
2d6 + 6dmg, BAB+6 x1, avg dmg per swing 13
Vs AC:
14: 65%, avg 8.45
16: 55%, avg 7.15
18: 45%, avg 5,85
20: 35%, avg 4.55
30: 5%, avg 0.65
16str monk with weapon focus:
1d6 + 3dmg, BAB +2 x2, avg dmg per swing 6.5
vs AC:
14: 40%, avg 5.2
16: 30%, avg 3.9
18: 20%, avg 2.6
20: 10%, avg 1.3
30: 5%, avg 0.65
16str modified monk with full bab and only one flurry attack with -1 and weapon focus:
1d6 + 3dmg, bab +4 x2, avg dmg per swing 6.5
vs AC:
14: 50%, avg 6.5
16: 40%, avg 5.2
18: 30%, avg 3.9
20: 20%, avg 2.6
30: 5%, avg 0.65
So even REDUCING the flurry penalties as well as giving them full BAB, they still come out behind a fighter. A more realistic scenario would have the stats arrayed more like this:
28 point buy
FTR
18 str
10 dex
14 con
10 int
10 wis
8 cha
2d6+6, +5bab
Monk
14 str
14 dex
14 con
12 int
14 wis
8 cha
1d6+2 dmg, +0 bab
dropping dex/wis would make the monk nearly unable to fight without magical assistance, as the ac would be low enough that a kobold would pose a serious threat. In all but the highest of point buy games giving monks a single flurry with no penalty along with 1/1 bab progression would not be unbalancing. As they would still do less damage than the fighter, with a worse AC. (that would give them 1d6+2, with a +3bab)
sad fact is, you can get more out of 5 levels of shou diciple then you can with many more levels of monk. Light armor (woo celestial chainmail +5), any weapon you can use (woo cold iron flaming, shocking, freezing, acidic, halberd +1), full BAB and no MAD, all you need is dex and str.
My suggestion as to fixing the monk:
Remove:
still mind
purity of body
wholeness of body
diamond body
diamond soul
timeless body
tongue of sun and moon
empty body
perfect self
skill: diplomacy
quivering palm
slow fall
Add:
:any 3 or more of these:
full bab
faster AC bonus progression (maybe 1+0.5*lvl, or 1+0.33*lvl)
psionic power progression
larger variety of weapons usable
unarmed attacks bypass DR-cold iron/silver
All of them wouldnt be too unbalanced unless they were given too many psionic powers. Maybe progression that gets them lvl 1-3 psi warrior powers, knowing 2-3 of each level with a limited amount of power points. They would still likely have low AC in normal point builds, and similar if a bit lower average damage compared to fighters, seeing as they still have MAD, due to their extreme need for wis/dex in order to stay alvie
Of course this wouldnt be balanced in very high power games (36+points) but seeing as i would wager that most people play low to medium power games (25-32 point) thats what it should be balanced toward. In any case, they would still be on average less powerful than druids/clerics. With the new phb 2 opportunties for fighters, they would probably be fairly balanced versus fighters, as they have gained lots of potential.
Wait a minute, lets re-break down the math
18 str fighter with weapon focus using a greatsword at lvl 1:
2d6 + 6dmg, BAB+6 x1, avg dmg per swing 13
Vs AC:
14: 65%, avg 8.45
16: 55%, avg 7.15
18: 45%, avg 5,85
20: 35%, avg 4.55
30: 5%, avg 0.65
16str monk with weapon focus:
1d6 + 3dmg, BAB +2 x2, avg dmg per swing 6.5
vs AC:
14: 40%, avg 5.2
16: 30%, avg 3.9
18: 20%, avg 2.6
20: 10%, avg 1.3
30: 5%, avg 0.65
16str modified monk with full bab and only one flurry attack with -1 and weapon focus:
1d6 + 3dmg, bab +4 x2, avg dmg per swing 6.5
vs AC:
14: 50%, avg 6.5
16: 40%, avg 5.2
18: 30%, avg 3.9
20: 20%, avg 2.6
30: 5%, avg 0.65
So even REDUCING the flurry penalties as well as giving them full BAB, they still come out behind a fighter. A more realistic scenario would have the stats arrayed more like this:
28 point buy
FTR
18 str
10 dex
14 con
10 int
10 wis
8 cha
2d6+6, +5bab
Monk
14 str
14 dex
14 con
12 int
14 wis
8 cha
1d6+2 dmg, +0 bab
dropping dex/wis would make the monk nearly unable to fight without magical assistance, as the ac would be low enough that a kobold would pose a serious threat. In all but the highest of point buy games giving monks a single flurry with no penalty along with 1/1 bab progression would not be unbalancing. As they would still do less damage than the fighter, with a worse AC. (that would give them 1d6+2, with a +3bab)
sad fact is, you can get more out of 5 levels of shou diciple then you can with many more levels of monk. Light armor (woo celestial chainmail +5), any weapon you can use (woo cold iron flaming, shocking, freezing, acidic, halberd +1), full BAB and no MAD, all you need is dex and str.
My suggestion as to fixing the monk:
Remove:
still mind
purity of body
wholeness of body
diamond body
diamond soul
timeless body
tongue of sun and moon
empty body
perfect self
skill: diplomacy
quivering palm
slow fall
Add:
:any 3 or more of these:
full bab
faster AC bonus progression (maybe 1+0.5*lvl, or 1+0.33*lvl)
psionic power progression
larger variety of weapons usable
unarmed attacks bypass DR-cold iron/silver
All of them wouldnt be too unbalanced unless they were given too many psionic powers. Maybe progression that gets them lvl 1-3 psi warrior powers, knowing 2-3 of each level with a limited amount of power points. They would still likely have low AC in normal point builds, and similar if a bit lower average damage compared to fighters, seeing as they still have MAD, due to their extreme need for wis/dex in order to stay alvie
Of course this wouldnt be balanced in very high power games (36+points) but seeing as i would wager that most people play low to medium power games (25-32 point) thats what it should be balanced toward. In any case, they would still be on average less powerful than druids/clerics. With the new phb 2 opportunties for fighters, they would probably be fairly balanced versus fighters, as they have gained lots of potential.
I've been thinking for a while that an interesting monk/mystic class could be developed out of the warlock mechanics. Eldritch blast could be harnessed into bonus damage the monk can divide up among his attacks as desired, and the various mystical abilities - diamond body, slow fall, etc - can be treated the way invocations are. This way, you can use monks to represent a variety of types, from contemplative mystics to your Shaolin types to maybe even warlocks themselves.
Some of the unarmed fighting abilities - a base damage increase to 1d6, flurry, possibly others - could be rolled into feats so you can have fighter-based martial artists, and possibly better fighter/monk martial artists as well.
I've also come to the conclusion that the biggest thing that hurts monks is point buy. The 1e monk was one of those classes you got into if you miraculously managed to roll really high as I recall. If kept as is, the monk should probably have larger intrinsic AC bonuses and maybe martial-arts focus/ greater focus bonus feats to help with the BAB. Or maybe increased stat gain to reflect their physical/mental development...
Some of the unarmed fighting abilities - a base damage increase to 1d6, flurry, possibly others - could be rolled into feats so you can have fighter-based martial artists, and possibly better fighter/monk martial artists as well.
I've also come to the conclusion that the biggest thing that hurts monks is point buy. The 1e monk was one of those classes you got into if you miraculously managed to roll really high as I recall. If kept as is, the monk should probably have larger intrinsic AC bonuses and maybe martial-arts focus/ greater focus bonus feats to help with the BAB. Or maybe increased stat gain to reflect their physical/mental development...
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Cactot,
I think you should compare the monk to a TWF fighter (or maybe ranger). It has the same weaknesses (eg the bonus is worthless when you have to move), low damage, etc. I think the differences would be smaller, although the monk would still be quite weak vs the fighter. I just think that comparison would be more fair.
I think you should compare the monk to a TWF fighter (or maybe ranger). It has the same weaknesses (eg the bonus is worthless when you have to move), low damage, etc. I think the differences would be smaller, although the monk would still be quite weak vs the fighter. I just think that comparison would be more fair.
Hussar
Legend
Yes, but there is another point to remember. The greatsword wielding 18 str fighter does more damage than pretty much ANYONE. Certainly anyone who isn't also wielding a two handed weapon.
What's your point? That characters whose goal is to deal out supreme damage should be fighters (or maybe barbarians)? That's not exactly news.
What's your point? That characters whose goal is to deal out supreme damage should be fighters (or maybe barbarians)? That's not exactly news.
It's a matter of degree. The arguement is not that the Monk should deal out damage as good as the Fighter, but rather that they presently deal out damage too poorly to be an effective melee class. I haven't seen anyone seriously suggest the Monk should be as good at combat at the Fighter...just better than they are now.
It's also worth pointing out that most of the comparisons have been between the Monk and the Ranger or Paladin, as they are also second rank melee fighters with a plethra of special abilities. No one has even tried comparing the monk to the barbarian. I think this arguement is a bit of a strawman, honestly.
It's also worth pointing out that most of the comparisons have been between the Monk and the Ranger or Paladin, as they are also second rank melee fighters with a plethra of special abilities. No one has even tried comparing the monk to the barbarian. I think this arguement is a bit of a strawman, honestly.
Last edited:
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Cactot said:
But you've set attributes and weapons to skew it in the fighters favour anyway. What if it is fighter who has 16 str (he wants spring attack and combat expertise), against a monk who has 18 Str?
Plane Sailing said:
because in all but the highest point buy campaigns or the highest magic campaigns, a monk would be utterly gimping himself by spending 16 points initially on strength. As his armor class is entirely dependent on his stats, whereas a fighter can get quite a significant AC with a 10 in dex. I would love to see an example of a 28 point buy human monk with an 18str at level one that is not completely gimp. Fact is that fighters both have more options, and more effective options, than monks.
You can compare it to a 2 weapon fighter, but without prestige classes they are pretty weak, unless they use a 2h weapon and armor spikes. The reason why it is not a good comparison is that monks are pigeon holed into that fighting style, while fighters have viable and effective alternative to twf. To add insult to injury, because of the huge quantiy of feats available to them, they are less dependent on taking the human race, so can further the effective difference with +str or +con races. Oh yeah, and fighters are way more flexible as far as multi classing goes also.
Half orc fighter (twf)
18 str
16 dex
10 con
10 int
10 wis
6 cha
get full plate + buckler, and the AC is 20 vs a single target, should be acheiveable by lvl 2 or so.
use 2h weapon and armor spikes. get twf, itwf, robillars gambit, double hit, 2 weapon rend, combat reflexes, weapon focus, weapon spec, weapon mastery (total of +3atk/+4dmg with the weapon in question)
as leveling put 1 point into dex at lvl 4, the rest into str
half orc monk
18 str
14 dex
10 con
10 int
14 wis
6 cha
fear the 14ac that will stay that way until serious magic comes into play. cant use any of the really neat twf feats (double hit, 2 weapon rend) without putting all his level attribute points (and feats) into it. Oh yeah, will still do less damage, only doing strx1 and with a much lesser chance to hit.
Okay we can even compare a normal twf fighter to a monk, say at lvl 12.
feats:
weapon focus, weapon spec, gweapon focus, gweapon spec, weapon mastery, twf, itwf, gtwf, two weapon rend, double hit, robillars gambit, combat reflexes
with the following equip, +4str/dex items, celestial armor, +3 amulet of natural armor, +3 ring of protection, 2 x rapier +1 +shocking +flaming
best race would be wood elf +2str/dex, -2con/int/cha
32 point buy
24str 18 base +2 from leveling +4 item
23dex 18 base +1 from leveling +4 item
12con
10int
10wis
6cha
at lvl 12 his attack pattern would be (12 base, +7str, +4wf,gwf,wm, +1magic weapon, -2twf)
22/22/17/17/12/12
damage for for the mainhand per swing:
1d6 +7 str +6 spec +1d6 electricity +1d6 fire (avg 23.5)
offhand per swing:
1d6 +3 str +6 spec +1d6 electricity +1d6 fire (avg 19.5)
for each time both weapons hit, you do another:
1d6 +10 damage (avg 13.5) from two weapon rend
AC 10 base, +6 dex +8 armor +3 natural armor +3 ring of protection (AC 30)
some cr 12-14 monster ac's
beholder ac20
95/95(to hit both 90%) , 85/85 (to hit both 72%), 60/60 (to hit both 36%)
first set of attacks avg 40.8 + rend 12.1
2nd set of attacks avg 36.5 + rend 9.72
3rd set of attacks avg 25.8 + rend 4.86
avg/round 129.78
average AoO dmg: 52.9 (which occurs every time the monster swings at him)
gelugon ac28
%70/70(to hit both 49%), 45/45 (to hit both 20%), 20/20 (to hit both 4%)
"" 30.1 + 6.6 rend
"" 19.3 + 2.7 rend
"" 8.6 + .5 rend
avg/round 67.8
average AoO dmg: 36.7 (which occurs every time the monster swings at him)
lvl 12 monk
same race
with the following equip, +4wis/dex/str items, bracers of armor +4, +3 ring of protection, +3 amulet of mighty fists
20str +4item, 16base
25dex +3 levels, +4item, 18base
12con
20wis +4item 16base
6int
6cha
AC 29
weapon focus, combat reflexes, (improved natural attack feat), weapon finesse, ??
attacks +9bab, +7dex, +1 weapon focus, +3 amulet of mighty fists
20, 20, 20, 15
damage per swing 3d6 + 5 + 3(amulet of mighty fists?) . average of 18.5 per swing, even if he hit with all 4 attacks 100% of the time, he would only be doing an average of 74dmg per round. Only slightly higher than the fighters ACTUAL average versus the high AC baddie. Actual damage would drop to about 40 damage per round. The suboptimal build for a fighter would do roughly 60% MORE damage, an optimal bulid... more than that.
feats:
weapon focus, weapon spec, gweapon focus, gweapon spec, weapon mastery, twf, itwf, gtwf, two weapon rend, double hit, robillars gambit, combat reflexes
with the following equip, +4str/dex items, celestial armor, +3 amulet of natural armor, +3 ring of protection, 2 x rapier +1 +shocking +flaming
best race would be wood elf +2str/dex, -2con/int/cha
32 point buy
24str 18 base +2 from leveling +4 item
23dex 18 base +1 from leveling +4 item
12con
10int
10wis
6cha
at lvl 12 his attack pattern would be (12 base, +7str, +4wf,gwf,wm, +1magic weapon, -2twf)
22/22/17/17/12/12
damage for for the mainhand per swing:
1d6 +7 str +6 spec +1d6 electricity +1d6 fire (avg 23.5)
offhand per swing:
1d6 +3 str +6 spec +1d6 electricity +1d6 fire (avg 19.5)
for each time both weapons hit, you do another:
1d6 +10 damage (avg 13.5) from two weapon rend
AC 10 base, +6 dex +8 armor +3 natural armor +3 ring of protection (AC 30)
some cr 12-14 monster ac's
beholder ac20
95/95(to hit both 90%) , 85/85 (to hit both 72%), 60/60 (to hit both 36%)
first set of attacks avg 40.8 + rend 12.1
2nd set of attacks avg 36.5 + rend 9.72
3rd set of attacks avg 25.8 + rend 4.86
avg/round 129.78
average AoO dmg: 52.9 (which occurs every time the monster swings at him)
gelugon ac28
%70/70(to hit both 49%), 45/45 (to hit both 20%), 20/20 (to hit both 4%)
"" 30.1 + 6.6 rend
"" 19.3 + 2.7 rend
"" 8.6 + .5 rend
avg/round 67.8
average AoO dmg: 36.7 (which occurs every time the monster swings at him)
lvl 12 monk
same race
with the following equip, +4wis/dex/str items, bracers of armor +4, +3 ring of protection, +3 amulet of mighty fists
20str +4item, 16base
25dex +3 levels, +4item, 18base
12con
20wis +4item 16base
6int
6cha
AC 29
weapon focus, combat reflexes, (improved natural attack feat), weapon finesse, ??
attacks +9bab, +7dex, +1 weapon focus, +3 amulet of mighty fists
20, 20, 20, 15
damage per swing 3d6 + 5 + 3(amulet of mighty fists?) . average of 18.5 per swing, even if he hit with all 4 attacks 100% of the time, he would only be doing an average of 74dmg per round. Only slightly higher than the fighters ACTUAL average versus the high AC baddie. Actual damage would drop to about 40 damage per round. The suboptimal build for a fighter would do roughly 60% MORE damage, an optimal bulid... more than that.
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