Monsters of the Multiverse: the death of eldritch blast?


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Zaukrie

New Publisher
Completely removing short rests from the game would sound like a historic defeat of both game design and the playtesting process to me.
There are a million things that don't survive from version to version, let alone within a version over time. That doesn't sound historic at all.....it is just evolution of what they want the game to be.
 



Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
The flexibility is kinda a trap though. There are couple of ways to build the character that are just flat out better than the alternatives, and not even by a little bit, but by a lot. I would prefer there was better internal balance, and other builds would actually be more competitive.
I disagree. I think EB spam is overrated. Like, it’s good, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not so significantly better than other builds as to make them obsolete.
 


Jer

Legend
Supporter
Some sort of attrition is needed, otherwise battles that do not have significant risk of character death are pointless.
But there's also the point of view that battles that aren't a part of the story are pointless, and battles that are part of the story are always important even if there's no risk of death in them (death is not the only possible consequence after all). If the story you're telling is survival horror dungeon crawling then attrition is needed to keep the players in that mindset, but if the story you're telling is about an ongoing gang war between factions in a city for its control, and the battles take place over the course of a week rather than hour by hour, attrition is a lot less important.
 


But there's also the point of view that battles that aren't a part of the story are pointless, and battles that are part of the story are always important even if there's no risk of death in them (death is not the only possible consequence after all). If the story you're telling is survival horror dungeon crawling then attrition is needed to keep the players in that mindset, but if the story you're telling is about an ongoing gang war between factions in a city for its control, and the battles take place over the course of a week rather than hour by hour, attrition is a lot less important.
Battles that have narrative stakes are obviously the best. But this sort of mass market casual game simply cannot be built with an assumption that this is the default approach. Because it won't be, not even remotely. Creating good narrative stakes is hard, throwing in some angry hobgoblins is easy.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
There are a million things that don't survive from version to version, let alone within a version over time. That doesn't sound historic at all.....it is just evolution of what they want the game to be.
Rewinding back 2 editions to when every limited resource refreshed only overnight is devolution, not evolution.

Especially because the premise of having BOTH short and long rest AND the (admittedly underdeveloped) ideas of dialing their respective lengths was supposed to support more varied playstyles.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
Battles that have narrative stakes are obviously the best. But this sort of mass market casual game simply cannot be built with an assumption that this is the default approach. Because it won't be, not even remotely. Creating good narrative stakes is hard, throwing in some angry hobgoblins is easy.
But if you're just throwing in some hobgoblins to fight there's a story reason for it isn't there? If it's just a random battle with hobgoblins what's the point? Unless, like I said, you're playing a dungeon crawl game where the attrition is the point - then the random battles are part of the story. The story of a hardscrabble group of adventurers who are trying to survive a dungeon complex to gather treasure or fight some foe supports random battles and requires attrition as a motivating factor for taking decisions. It may or may not be a very deep story, but dungeon survival is a great collaborative story that D&D supports well.

Once you get outside of that kind of survival story, the D&D attrition model makes a lot less sense to the game. Which is where the arguments about the 5 minute workday come into play - adventurers in a survival story can't have a 5 minute workday, while adventures in other fantasy situations can often easily do so.
 

But if you're just throwing in some hobgoblins to fight there's a story reason for it isn't there? If it's just a random battle with hobgoblins what's the point? Unless, like I said, you're playing a dungeon crawl game where the attrition is the point - then the random battles are part of the story. The story of a hardscrabble group of adventurers who are trying to survive a dungeon complex to gather treasure or fight some foe supports random battles and requires attrition as a motivating factor for taking decisions. It may or may not be a very deep story, but dungeon survival is a great collaborative story that D&D supports well.
Yes. And it is favoured way to play for a lot of people. So you can't get rid of it.

Once you get outside of that kind of survival story, the D&D attrition model makes a lot less sense to the game. Which is where the arguments about the 5 minute workday come into play - adventurers in a survival story can't have a 5 minute workday, while adventures in other fantasy situations can often easily do so.
I don't really think answer to '5 minute work day' is 'no attrition at all.' Nor I really agree that somewhat more narrative focused games couldn't have any minor battles or attrition shouldn't matter at all. A hero being wounded in an earlier scuffle, so that they're not in full strength for a pivotal battle seems like pretty normal narrative for increasing suspense and creating drama.

It's really just is about pacing and scaling of things. I fully agree that the normal expected 'six fights per day' is utterly crazy, and completely unviable for anything besides non-stop dungeon crawls. Gritty rests might be a tad clumsy, but it is a decent starting point for altering the pacing.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
@Vaalingrade and @Crimson Longinus

One option to deal with the adventuring day is to have two long rests per level. All rests count as short rests, and each player can choose which short rest to count as a long rest.
That just makes the adventuring day worse because now you're used up character is just plain going to suck for long periods of time. My intention is to get rid of 'long rest' stuff as much as possible.
Some sort of attrition is needed, otherwise battles that do not have significant risk of character death are pointless.
I prefer to just have fun fights and find character death itself pointless in a game about building and playing a character you enjoy.
 


Yaarel

Mind Mage
That just makes the adventuring day worse because now you're used up character is just plain going to suck for long periods of time. My intention is to get rid of 'long rest' stuff as much as possible.
Players are less likely to use up a valuable limited resource like two long rests per level, unless they really need it.

And if they waste it, there is no choice but to go thru the rest of the level with only short rests.

Also, with choosing when to count a short rest as long rest, for a deep restoration, it can happen during a busy dungeon crawl, if that is when the character really needs it.
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
Players are less likely to use up a valuable limited resource like two long rests per level, unless they really need it.
I never enjoyed stuff like this. It's like the weapon that does 9999 damage Final Fantasy gives you on the first disc then makes you afraid to use so you never use it. So why even have it?
And if they waste it, there is no choice but to go thru the rest of the level with only short rests.
Which is what I want to avoid by killing the adventuring day in the first place.
 

Not accepting that there are stakes other than death is a major problem n all mediums nowadays.
Perhaps. But like I said earlier, narrative stakes are the best, but also difficult to create, and a casual mass market game like D&D cannot work as them as a default.
Sometimes, the methods and act is more important than the result.
So you're saying that you just like rolling the dice, even if they don't affect the outcome?
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Perhaps. But like I said earlier, narrative stakes are the best, but also difficult to create, and a casual mass market game like D&D cannot work as them as a default.
Is it that it can't or that industry is too lazy and has trained the fanbase to expect it?
So you're saying that you just like rolling the dice, even if they don't affect the outcome?
I like rolling dice to do cool stuff. Character death is just a dumb thing that impedes this and prevents real stakes from materializing. How can you follow through with actual stakes if the character might be removed from the story at random at any time, leaving plot thread hanging uselessly in the wind?
 

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