Motw: Shifter (and Shapechange spell)

[Vecna]

Can a shifter add a template to a creature he changes into?

The shifter cannot assume shapes with more HD than him, am I right?
So, a Wiz5/ShifterX can change into a troll (Hd 6), but if templates are allowed, he can change into an half dragon/troll (fly, breath, regeneration, STR +8...).

Same question for the spell Shapechange: Poly self/other forbid templates, but, from the description for Shapechange: "As polymorph other, except this spell enables the character to assume the form of any single creature of less than deity status "

 

[Avatar of the North]

I don't see what prevents Poly self/other from using templates..... As long as it doesn't change your type to add the said template.

if a magical beast wanted to polymorph self into a Shadow Templated creature(any corporeal creature can have this templated added) it should be able to for the following reason, The template turns you into a magical beast which the caster in this (wacked) example already is. Adding Axiomatic/Anarchic to anything but a animal or beast doesn't change its type (kind of odd). I'd allow that with poly self as well.

With shapechange i'd allow it cause with shapechange you can become other creature types any way, I mean common Shapechange IS a 9th level spell it should be able to change your type to

 

[Veldrane]

Are you really going to allow a 8th level Magic User who polymophs into Troll or Pixie (that are good themselves) to poly into Half-Celestial Trolls or Pixies (that are extremely better)?!?

 

[Tetsubo]

I wouldn't allow templates to be included in a wild shape or shapechange. These forms are suppose to be an "average" member of the creature chosen. A being with a template is anything but average. And a troll or pixie is powerful enough as is. Chosing what form to take part of the challenge in changing shape. There shouldn't be an "uber" form created with templates that erases this challenge.

 

[Vecna]

1. Obviously someone changed into half-dragon/X cannot use his breath weapon (which is SU). My mistake.
2. The errated Polys don't allow the use of templates.

 

[Tempuswolf]

By the books, no and yes.

Wildshape doesn't allow templates because it is still based (although not as closely as before) on polymorph self, and polymorph self still prohibits templated creatures.

Greater wildshape, the Shifter PrC's class ability, greatly expands the range of forms available, but three types of creatures are still omitted from the list:

A) Templated creatures
B) Hit Dice Advanced creatures
C) Legendary creatures (only available to the Animal Lord PrC apparently)

Unless you as a DM think that these omissions are unintentional then these types of creatures are still forbidden.

Shapechange, on the other hand, specifically allows "any creature ... or object" between flea and football stadium size. So templated, advanced and the new legendary creatures are fair game.

 

[Vecna]

[Edited to remove another mistake]

 

[ZYG]

Here are my opinions on the shaper's greater wild shape ability and templates.

Originally posted by Tetsubo
I wouldn't allow templates to be included in a wild shape or shapechange. These forms are suppose to be an "average" member of the creature chosen. A being with a template is anything but average.

A templated creature, such as a half-dragon ogre, is an average average member of the half-dragon ogre species, and not an average member of the ogre species. Its type is dragon, and not large giant. That's why you cannot normally use polymorph self to turn yourself into a half-dragon, because you cannot change into the dragon type. The shifter can turn into the dragon type at 7th level, so he should be able to turn into a half-dragon at 7th level.

Originally posted by Vecna
The errated Polys don't allow the use of templates.

It doesn't specify you cannot use templates, it says "...Nor can you turn the subject into a variant form of the creature...".
A templated creature is not a variant of the base creature, just as the half-elf is not a variant of the human or elf creature, and the dire bat is not a variant of the bat creature. A variant, as I see it, might be a double jointed ogre. I see no reason why you couldn't turn into a celestial lion, which is a magical beast, if you could normally turn into a displacer beast, which is also a magical beast.

Originally posted by Tempuswolf
Greater wildshape, the Shifter PrC's class ability, greatly expands the range of forms available, but three types of creatures are still omitted from the list:

A) Templated creatures
B) Hit Dice Advanced creatures
C) Legendary creatures (only available to the Animal Lord PrC apparently)

A) There is no "templated" base type. A half-dragon creature has a base type of dragon. A celestial creature is usually magical beast, or it retains it's own type. A ghost/lich is undead, hafl-celestial/half-fiend is outsider and a lycanthrope is a shapechanger.
B) You control the height/weight of the creature you turn into. You could turn into a medium dragon (a very young or young dragon), which is just a hit die advanced small dragon (a wyrmling). If the advancement for a creature is "by character class", then you cannot turn into an advanced creature, but if the advancement is by HD/size, then you should be able to turn into an advanced creature, such as a large gargoyle (it's nornally medium), as long as its HD are not greater than yours.
C) A legendary animal is of type animal, just like a dire animal, so if you have 30 HD, you should be able to turn into a legendary shark.

I might be wrong on this one, but the only shapes that were omitted from the shaper were fey and shapechanger, so he cannot turn into a pixie or a doppleganger.


Disclamer: The preceding were all my opinions.

- Z Y G

 

[Tempuswolf]

A) There is no "templated" base type. A half-dragon creature has a base type of dragon. A celestial creature is usually magical beast, or it retains it's own type. A ghost/lich is undead, hafl-celestial/half-fiend is outsider and a lycanthrope is a shapechanger.

I wasn't using "type" in my post to mean game term "Type", you can read it as "kind" if it is confusing you.

But onto the original topic, the description of polymorph self says explicitly:

Nor can you turn into a variant form of a creature. For example you can turn he subject(sic) into an ogre, but not a half-dragon ogre.

B) You control the height/weight of the creature you turn into. You could turn into a medium dragon (a very young or young dragon), which is just a hit die advanced small dragon (a wyrmling). If the advancement for a creature is "by character class", then you cannot turn into an advanced creature, but if the advancement is by HD/size, then you should be able to turn into an advanced creature, such as a large gargoyle (it's nornally medium), as long as its HD are not greater than yours.

I believe that HD advanced creatures were nixed by the Sage, but I can't find the citation now. He invoked the same part of the polymorph description that prevents templates as I recall.

C) A legendary animal is of type animal, just like a dire animal, so if you have 30 HD, you should be able to turn into a legendary shark.

Maybe you're right here. The greater wildshape doesn't list dire animals and normal animals separately. Legendary animals might also be available at Shifter 2.

 

[Allister]

Er, isn't there a much bigger limitation?

Namely, you have to be familiar with the creature that you want to shapechange into? Thus, unless you met a half-dragon troll, he couldn't shift into that form?