-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)
- Thread starter Vindicator
- Start date
Stone Angel
First Post
Wow this thread really evoked some emotion from the community. If it were me and I was playing the paladin, I would have done the same thing. There are obviously a lot of variables here. What is the lawful state of said community, what deity does the paladin serves. But I mean come on the Paladin acted in the best intrests of the community(no more molester), the girl(obviously), and I would say his religion(what deity with a good descriptor would punish the man for this, it makes them sound like buereaucrats..sp?..)
All this back stab stuff come on, just because he acted swiftly didn't wait for the scum to use the girl as leverage, or harm her. What would the paladins superiors and conscience have to say about this. You let filth touch an innocent child and live in order for a fair child, was it fair to the child where was the law for her? How could he sleep at night, how could he walk away from that room in order to summon the watch.
Not during my session, *applause*
The Seraph of Earth and Stone
All this back stab stuff come on, just because he acted swiftly didn't wait for the scum to use the girl as leverage, or harm her. What would the paladins superiors and conscience have to say about this. You let filth touch an innocent child and live in order for a fair child, was it fair to the child where was the law for her? How could he sleep at night, how could he walk away from that room in order to summon the watch.
Not during my session, *applause*
The Seraph of Earth and Stone
"Now for a little planar pespective, for this I have drafted friendly solar by the name of Ocsalus the Lightgiver "
"Thank you Toras, Glad to Be here
"What do you think of this little debate?"
I find it quite thought provoking, and I am glad people are finally talking about the virtues of Law and Good as applied to a paladin
"What is your opinion on the issue at hand?"
The Paladin's choice could have been better, as others have already pointed out. But I do not find sufficent wrong for anything more than a scolling . His diety should , in my most humble opinion, use a much lighter touch. After all Paladins while men and women of great virtue, but they are not exemplars, at least not yet. They do not see things quite as clearly as we do and they have the natural tendacy of their race to neutrality to deal with.
Stripping powers, even a few from a Paladin sends the wrong message, bother to the Paladin in question, and society at large. It might seem like such a hanus act was did not merit such act or that the paladin acting much more wrongly than he did. Perhaps making the Paladin responsible for catching the cohorts of the villian or if the girl possesses no family, to take care of her personally and raise her in virtue.
"And about the difference between doing this to a human commoner and say an orc or other such humaniod?"
I had hoped that we would be beyond this. But there is something I must emphasize, no creature save fiends are born evil. Each race simply has tendacies based on their instincts and social structures. If your suitability for live and your moral imperative were predestined for everyone else, why are humans the only ones with the ability to choose.
Moralistic arguments based on race lead only to racial hatred and no one wants that.
"Thank you for your time, and we will see you next week on Toras talk."
"Thank you Toras, Glad to Be here
"What do you think of this little debate?"
I find it quite thought provoking, and I am glad people are finally talking about the virtues of Law and Good as applied to a paladin
"What is your opinion on the issue at hand?"
The Paladin's choice could have been better, as others have already pointed out. But I do not find sufficent wrong for anything more than a scolling . His diety should , in my most humble opinion, use a much lighter touch. After all Paladins while men and women of great virtue, but they are not exemplars, at least not yet. They do not see things quite as clearly as we do and they have the natural tendacy of their race to neutrality to deal with.
Stripping powers, even a few from a Paladin sends the wrong message, bother to the Paladin in question, and society at large. It might seem like such a hanus act was did not merit such act or that the paladin acting much more wrongly than he did. Perhaps making the Paladin responsible for catching the cohorts of the villian or if the girl possesses no family, to take care of her personally and raise her in virtue.
"And about the difference between doing this to a human commoner and say an orc or other such humaniod?"
I had hoped that we would be beyond this. But there is something I must emphasize, no creature save fiends are born evil. Each race simply has tendacies based on their instincts and social structures. If your suitability for live and your moral imperative were predestined for everyone else, why are humans the only ones with the ability to choose.
Moralistic arguments based on race lead only to racial hatred and no one wants that.
"Thank you for your time, and we will see you next week on Toras talk."
Brian Chalian
First Post
As the premier defense attorney for paladins from the Wizards boards, I am compelled to post.Vindicator said:
There are three and only three ways a paladin may be stripped of her magic.
1. Ceasing to be lawful good.
2. Willful commission of an evil act.
3. Grossly violating the code of conduct.
I will show that the defendant has done none of those.
Ceasing to be lawful good.
The defendant attacked the rapist on sight, correct? I refer you to Core Rulebook III, Revised, page 165, which implicity states that such behavior is lawful good.
Willful commission of an evil act.
The Book of Exalted Deeds clarifies that there are four criteria which must be met before violence can be considered "good". It must be directed against evil (the rapist), it must have good intentions (to stop the rape of the child), it must discriminate between combatants and noncombatants (the sword only struck the rapist), and it must not use torture or evil magic (one clean blow).
[BTW, I did read the libel against the BXD. The quote taken out of context about "...the outbreak of violence is a victory for evil." It is the last line of a paragraph explaining why good shouldn't fight itself, not a blanket condemnation of violence. Now I'm left to wonder if that poster was simply misinformed or lying.]
Grossly violating the code of conduct.
Respect legitimate authority--Stopping a rapist caught red-handed is not disrespectful of legitimate authority.
Act with honor--The paladin didn't sneak in invisibly, wearing elven boots. He marched boldly in.
Help those who need help--The child was rescued.
Punish those that threaten innocents--The rapist will not harm innocent people again.
It is not the paladin's fault the rapist failed his Spot and Listen checks, and he should not be penalized for it.
Last edited:
Dragonblade
Adventurer
Damn, we need to get SHARK in on this one! 
I'll see if I can get him to post a response but basically here is his paladin code. Posted in its entirety for both its elegance and eloquence. SHARK's paladin code defines the paladin in my own games
------------
Greetings!
(1) The Paladin is charged with bringing war and death to the forces of Darkness, wherever they are found!
In pursuit of this goal, it is generally expected that the Paladin will bring open war and forthright attacks against such opponents.
(2) The Paladin is charged with defending the faithful: This means fellow worshippers of the Paladin's gods; Temple priests, brother Templars. This also includes guarding the persons of pilgrims while on holy pilgrimmages to holy sites; Guarding the grounds of the sacred temples and holy sites of the gods.
(3) The Paladin is to generally--though some, are more introverted by nature--expected to provide dynamic, bold leadership to all of those around the Paladin.
(4) The Paladin is expected to be prepared to sacrifice his life as a Holy Martyr, should the situation require it, or, of course, under divine inspiration.
For example, this can include, but is not limited to:
In a desperate siege, where things are depressingly grim, the Paladin may martyr himself by riding boldly forth from the besieged fortress or encampment, and heroically charging into the enemy, thus, dying in righteous combat. Also, though, the Paladin's certain, conscious death serves as a living example of open defiance of the powers of Darkness, and may serve to encourage and inspire the remaining beleagured defenders with righteous fury and determination. In addition, it serves as an implaccable statement to the forces of Darkness, that here, there shall be no mercy, no compromise, no surrender. For such, Paladins have been honoured in hymns of praise, and their names inscribed within the Book of Faith. (This is a huge series of beautiful books which record the stories of great heroes of the faith. The master set is maintained within the Great Temple, which is a fortress-temple in the capital.)
The Paladin may martyr themselves by insisting on staying behind, and forming a formidable rear-guard, fighting the pursuing enemy to the death, so that wounded party members, fellow soldiers, or just common folk, may escape, and yet live. For such, Paladins have been honoured in hymns of praise, and their names inscribed within the Book of Faith.
The Paladin may martyr himself by willingly leading a raid deep into the territory of the forces of Darkness, where the purpose may include the retrieval of an item; the death of a leader, or specific individual; or simply to bring fire and steel to the enemy, all the while knowing that their own death is highly likely. In this instance, aside from the specific goal as outlined above, the general goal is to serve as a constant source, a constant reminder to the forces of Darkness, be they Lich, Dragon, Vampire, or Orc King, it doesn't matter--The message sent, over and over again, is this--THE FORCES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE COMING FOR YOU!--There is no escape. The Forces of Darkness are not the "Hunters"--but the hunted! It is not for good, righteous folk to live in fear of Darkness, but it is they, the spawn of Chaos, the monsters, the servants of the dark gods who must live in fear! Though the forces of Darkness may slaughter millions, the forces of Righteousness shall march as one, and continue to march, and bring judgement, fire, and death, to all the forces of Darkness, wherever they hide, wherever they can be found!
(5) The Paladin is expected to be a champion of Righteousness and Good, within the community, and wherever he travels. For example;
The Paladin is ready to preach to others about his faith; The Paladin is ready to offer counseling to those in need, be they in mourning, discouraged, or fearful. The Paladin stands ready to offer words of wisdom, advice, friendship, or just a listening ear, or a warm embrace.
The Paladin is expected to generously make offerings to his Temple; In addition, the Paladin is expected to be willing to help other party members in need, for example. For the Paladin, "Gold" isn't terribly important. Some Paladins are good at saving, and it is encouraged to have plenty in order to help those in need; However, it is also common for many Paladins to be very low on "Gold" and such, because in truth, they value it so little. They can always get more, either by conquest, by honest labor, or by the Temple, if they are in need. Furthermore, many Paladins need only go to any Temple to find much of what they need; In addition, if in need, many farmers and peasants will come up with something; and in the city, Taverns and restaurants often feed and house them for free. Businesses, like armourers, weaponsmiths, or ranchers selling horses, will provide the Paladin with what he needs for free, or, simply on the Paladin's word to pay later. The Paladin's word is everything. Once pledged, only death, or the most extreme of circumstances will prevent the Paladin from fulfilling his word of honour.
While travelling the countryside, it is not uncommon for Paladins to stop by a farm and assist with putting in a new fence, or help by bringing in the harvest, all for free. The Paladin may offer some instruction in weapons practice, or warnings of monsters in the area, or simply praising his gods, and their righteous King. The Paladin may also inquire to the farmer and his family about news of any brigands or monsters in the area, in which the folks KNOW that "HELL IS COM'IN!" to such enemies. They KNOW that the Paladins are not like slick merchants, or demagogues, or petty nobles--Always talking, promising the world, but somehow, never delivering. The fact is, that should the farmer say,
"well, yes, there are some Gnolls up in the hills, just over the other side o'the river there!"
The farmer, and his family may see the Paladin return within a few days to a week, with others with him. The Paladin will then drive the evil Gnolls out into the open, or slaughter them in the caves. The Paladin will seek to absolutely crush the Gnolls, and be very willing to heroically pour his life's blood out right there, on the field of battle! Should the paladin fail, and lay there sprawled in the field dead, well, in a week, more will come. And should they fail, more will come. Even in death, the Paladin's commitment is made good. Soon, one way or the other, the Gnolls will be nothing more than a memory. And the farmer's family will be safe. That fact, and that kind of unflinching courage and self-sacrifice in the face of horrible danger and frequent death, is why the Paladins are respected so much, and why they enjoy unprecedented authority and power. The people KNOW that the Paladins really care; They KNOW that the Paladins keep their word of honour; They KNOW that Paladins will sacrifice themselves to protect them, any of them, regardless of their birth, status, or wealth. Rain or shine, in good times and bad, the people can take that to the bank! Guaranteed.
Paladins encourage sexual restraint, and self-discipline. Some Paladins are celibate; others may have respectable girl-friends; marriage is strongly encouraged; In all cases, keeping company with whores or even a series of girlfriends is not acceptable. It is seen as displaying an inappropriate image of the Paladins, and furthermore, is viewed as morally undisciplined. In public, they drink only moderately, if at all. In private celebrations and such, they may be more free with drinking. However, should chronic drunkenness become a routine, disciplinary counseling will be in order. Likewise, no hallucinogenic drugs and such are acceptable. That is seen, again, as morally undisciplined. Pipes, cigars, and such, can be used freely, as they don't inhibit or impair the Paladin's judgement.
Unless overtaken by age, or injury, the Paladin is expected to remain in top physical condition. The Paladin needs to have all of his physical strength and endurance, to be able to fight against the forces of Darkness.
Paladins are expected to uphold, champion, and where applicable, enforce the laws of the King, and Church. For example, Paladins are not expected to be full-time law-enforcement officers. Thus, they don't go around town, looking for thieves or drunks to "arrest." However, should a Paladin witness a thief, he is expected to pursue and arrest the thief. Should the Paladin witness a domestic quarrel, he is expected to attempt to mediate, and/or, call the Watch. Should the Paladin witness a murder, or attempted murder, full assault is totally permissable. The Paladin may "arrest" the criminal, if the Paladin judges that that is practical. If the Paladin witnesses, or hears of either schemes of violence or sedition against the Faith, or the King, the Paladin is charged with all legal and ecclessiastical authority to root out traitors, heretics, cultists, assassins, or rebels, as deemed appropriate and necessary. In those cases, the paladin may arrest them, should vital intelligence be needed, or some other purpose is desired. The Paladin, however, is not required to do so. Good faith and judgement are entrusted to him. If the paladin says that he thought about bringing the cultist in for further interrogation, but at the time, he decided it was too dangerous, and so proceeded to cut the cultist down, no one is going to second guess the Paladin. His word, and his own good judgement, are sufficient.
The Paladin, where possible, is expected to attend Temple services once per week. The paladin is expected to encourage others to do so as well. The Paladin is expected to be knowledgeable in Church Doctrine, Ecclessiastical Law, as well as the King's Law. The Paladin is expected to be knowledgeable about history, customs, heraldry, and spiritual knowledge, about the forces of Darkness. Demons, Necromancers, Orcs, whathaveyou. The Paladin is expected to know some skills of the land, and of labor. The Paladin is expected to embrace a vigorous work ethic. It is never seen, no matter his prior station in life, as somehow "beneath" him to chop word, or lend a hand in any kind of labor. The Paladin is expected to continue his academic studies, and continue to grow in knowledge and spiritual wisdom. Stupid Paladins are not looked upon with favor, nor are lazy ones, or Paladins who can only swing a sword. The Paladin is expected to act with courage, decisiveness, boldness, integrity, honor, and faithfulness in all things.
The Paladin is expected to dress appropriately for whatever occasions, if possible; The Paladin is expected to assist law enforcement in broader ways, if needed; The Paladin is expected to stand up to tyranny, corruption, and moral decay. He is expected to bring such to the attention of all proper authorities; Should they be slack in observing such, the Paladin is expected to boldly challenge them in righteous chastisement. The purpose is to shame them into fulfilling their noble duties. Should they resist, a knightly challenge to combat is in order. Should they be too large, or unwilling to face such noble judgement by the sword, then the Paladin is charged with first making a public announcement, either in person, or in writing, or by Bard;-- that Judgement and Wrath shall come upon the evil, corrupt people, and all who follow them. Then, bold, decisive action can be launched against the evil noble, merchant lord, or whoever.
In general, the paladin seeks to always minimize civilian casualties in any actions. The Paladin may not pretend to parley, and then ambush the enemy. However, there is no restriction on attacking at night, or using terrain or suprise, to ambush a numerically stronger opponent. If the opponent is willing, the Paladin is always ready to enter into single combat. Naturally, the paladin isn't supposed to engage in lying, cheating, or stealing. That is a PRINCIPLE that is followed by all Paladins. However, that doesn't mean that the Paladin cannot say whatever while in an effort to save someone, or serve some greater purpose.
Likewise, in the constant struggle against the forces of Darkness, the Paladin is expected to keep the "Big Picture" in mind. The most good, in the long run, for the most people. That means that sometimes, innocent civilians may die. That means that some troops may have to be sacrificed, so that more mmight live. That means that if your best friend, even a brother Templar, is a werewolf, he dies. If your brother becomes a vampire, he gets staked and burned. Period.
Does that mean that the Paladin should never attempt, as in the case of the werewolf, to "cure" him? No, it doesn't. Nor does it preclude some thought for reversing, if possible, vampirism. But once again, common sense, grace, and good judgement, are entrusted to the Paladin. It is entrusted, with the knowledge that Paladins are HUMAN or (IMPERFECT) and thus, may on occasion, may make mistakes. It is thus entrusted to the Paladin by the Paladin's gods, by the Church, by the King, and by the People. The benefit of the doubt is given to the Paladin. He is not second-guessed for each and every decision he makes, or fails to make. It is assumed that if the Paladin had thought it was reasonable to save whoever, he would have done so. If the Paladin thought it was possible to take so and so prisoner, he would have done so. The fact that the Paladin didn't, it isn't therefore assumed that he is wrong. People assume that the Paladin executed Judgement, Wrath, or Mercy, as needed, and as the Paladin thought best.
Thus, the burden, the challenge, the divine calling, to be a Paladin is indeed difficult, and trying. Only the best need apply. And many of them will die in the holy, righteous cause. As it is taught to the Paladins while in the Monastary;
"Seek ye to follow the narrow path, which leads to the gate of Righteousness; For the broad way, choose not, for it leads to the way of destruction, the gates of damnation."
In my campaign, the common Fighter, lives under no such requirements, or expectations.
Thus, then, in my view, are the ways of the Paladin.
Of course, any thoughtful questions or analysis is indeed welcomed!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
------------------
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but doing what you have to, despite the fear."
I'll see if I can get him to post a response but basically here is his paladin code. Posted in its entirety for both its elegance and eloquence. SHARK's paladin code defines the paladin in my own games
------------
Greetings!
(1) The Paladin is charged with bringing war and death to the forces of Darkness, wherever they are found!
In pursuit of this goal, it is generally expected that the Paladin will bring open war and forthright attacks against such opponents.
(2) The Paladin is charged with defending the faithful: This means fellow worshippers of the Paladin's gods; Temple priests, brother Templars. This also includes guarding the persons of pilgrims while on holy pilgrimmages to holy sites; Guarding the grounds of the sacred temples and holy sites of the gods.
(3) The Paladin is to generally--though some, are more introverted by nature--expected to provide dynamic, bold leadership to all of those around the Paladin.
(4) The Paladin is expected to be prepared to sacrifice his life as a Holy Martyr, should the situation require it, or, of course, under divine inspiration.
For example, this can include, but is not limited to:
In a desperate siege, where things are depressingly grim, the Paladin may martyr himself by riding boldly forth from the besieged fortress or encampment, and heroically charging into the enemy, thus, dying in righteous combat. Also, though, the Paladin's certain, conscious death serves as a living example of open defiance of the powers of Darkness, and may serve to encourage and inspire the remaining beleagured defenders with righteous fury and determination. In addition, it serves as an implaccable statement to the forces of Darkness, that here, there shall be no mercy, no compromise, no surrender. For such, Paladins have been honoured in hymns of praise, and their names inscribed within the Book of Faith. (This is a huge series of beautiful books which record the stories of great heroes of the faith. The master set is maintained within the Great Temple, which is a fortress-temple in the capital.)
The Paladin may martyr themselves by insisting on staying behind, and forming a formidable rear-guard, fighting the pursuing enemy to the death, so that wounded party members, fellow soldiers, or just common folk, may escape, and yet live. For such, Paladins have been honoured in hymns of praise, and their names inscribed within the Book of Faith.
The Paladin may martyr himself by willingly leading a raid deep into the territory of the forces of Darkness, where the purpose may include the retrieval of an item; the death of a leader, or specific individual; or simply to bring fire and steel to the enemy, all the while knowing that their own death is highly likely. In this instance, aside from the specific goal as outlined above, the general goal is to serve as a constant source, a constant reminder to the forces of Darkness, be they Lich, Dragon, Vampire, or Orc King, it doesn't matter--The message sent, over and over again, is this--THE FORCES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE COMING FOR YOU!--There is no escape. The Forces of Darkness are not the "Hunters"--but the hunted! It is not for good, righteous folk to live in fear of Darkness, but it is they, the spawn of Chaos, the monsters, the servants of the dark gods who must live in fear! Though the forces of Darkness may slaughter millions, the forces of Righteousness shall march as one, and continue to march, and bring judgement, fire, and death, to all the forces of Darkness, wherever they hide, wherever they can be found!
(5) The Paladin is expected to be a champion of Righteousness and Good, within the community, and wherever he travels. For example;
The Paladin is ready to preach to others about his faith; The Paladin is ready to offer counseling to those in need, be they in mourning, discouraged, or fearful. The Paladin stands ready to offer words of wisdom, advice, friendship, or just a listening ear, or a warm embrace.
The Paladin is expected to generously make offerings to his Temple; In addition, the Paladin is expected to be willing to help other party members in need, for example. For the Paladin, "Gold" isn't terribly important. Some Paladins are good at saving, and it is encouraged to have plenty in order to help those in need; However, it is also common for many Paladins to be very low on "Gold" and such, because in truth, they value it so little. They can always get more, either by conquest, by honest labor, or by the Temple, if they are in need. Furthermore, many Paladins need only go to any Temple to find much of what they need; In addition, if in need, many farmers and peasants will come up with something; and in the city, Taverns and restaurants often feed and house them for free. Businesses, like armourers, weaponsmiths, or ranchers selling horses, will provide the Paladin with what he needs for free, or, simply on the Paladin's word to pay later. The Paladin's word is everything. Once pledged, only death, or the most extreme of circumstances will prevent the Paladin from fulfilling his word of honour.
While travelling the countryside, it is not uncommon for Paladins to stop by a farm and assist with putting in a new fence, or help by bringing in the harvest, all for free. The Paladin may offer some instruction in weapons practice, or warnings of monsters in the area, or simply praising his gods, and their righteous King. The Paladin may also inquire to the farmer and his family about news of any brigands or monsters in the area, in which the folks KNOW that "HELL IS COM'IN!" to such enemies. They KNOW that the Paladins are not like slick merchants, or demagogues, or petty nobles--Always talking, promising the world, but somehow, never delivering. The fact is, that should the farmer say,
"well, yes, there are some Gnolls up in the hills, just over the other side o'the river there!"
The farmer, and his family may see the Paladin return within a few days to a week, with others with him. The Paladin will then drive the evil Gnolls out into the open, or slaughter them in the caves. The Paladin will seek to absolutely crush the Gnolls, and be very willing to heroically pour his life's blood out right there, on the field of battle! Should the paladin fail, and lay there sprawled in the field dead, well, in a week, more will come. And should they fail, more will come. Even in death, the Paladin's commitment is made good. Soon, one way or the other, the Gnolls will be nothing more than a memory. And the farmer's family will be safe. That fact, and that kind of unflinching courage and self-sacrifice in the face of horrible danger and frequent death, is why the Paladins are respected so much, and why they enjoy unprecedented authority and power. The people KNOW that the Paladins really care; They KNOW that the Paladins keep their word of honour; They KNOW that Paladins will sacrifice themselves to protect them, any of them, regardless of their birth, status, or wealth. Rain or shine, in good times and bad, the people can take that to the bank! Guaranteed.
Paladins encourage sexual restraint, and self-discipline. Some Paladins are celibate; others may have respectable girl-friends; marriage is strongly encouraged; In all cases, keeping company with whores or even a series of girlfriends is not acceptable. It is seen as displaying an inappropriate image of the Paladins, and furthermore, is viewed as morally undisciplined. In public, they drink only moderately, if at all. In private celebrations and such, they may be more free with drinking. However, should chronic drunkenness become a routine, disciplinary counseling will be in order. Likewise, no hallucinogenic drugs and such are acceptable. That is seen, again, as morally undisciplined. Pipes, cigars, and such, can be used freely, as they don't inhibit or impair the Paladin's judgement.
Unless overtaken by age, or injury, the Paladin is expected to remain in top physical condition. The Paladin needs to have all of his physical strength and endurance, to be able to fight against the forces of Darkness.
Paladins are expected to uphold, champion, and where applicable, enforce the laws of the King, and Church. For example, Paladins are not expected to be full-time law-enforcement officers. Thus, they don't go around town, looking for thieves or drunks to "arrest." However, should a Paladin witness a thief, he is expected to pursue and arrest the thief. Should the Paladin witness a domestic quarrel, he is expected to attempt to mediate, and/or, call the Watch. Should the Paladin witness a murder, or attempted murder, full assault is totally permissable. The Paladin may "arrest" the criminal, if the Paladin judges that that is practical. If the Paladin witnesses, or hears of either schemes of violence or sedition against the Faith, or the King, the Paladin is charged with all legal and ecclessiastical authority to root out traitors, heretics, cultists, assassins, or rebels, as deemed appropriate and necessary. In those cases, the paladin may arrest them, should vital intelligence be needed, or some other purpose is desired. The Paladin, however, is not required to do so. Good faith and judgement are entrusted to him. If the paladin says that he thought about bringing the cultist in for further interrogation, but at the time, he decided it was too dangerous, and so proceeded to cut the cultist down, no one is going to second guess the Paladin. His word, and his own good judgement, are sufficient.
The Paladin, where possible, is expected to attend Temple services once per week. The paladin is expected to encourage others to do so as well. The Paladin is expected to be knowledgeable in Church Doctrine, Ecclessiastical Law, as well as the King's Law. The Paladin is expected to be knowledgeable about history, customs, heraldry, and spiritual knowledge, about the forces of Darkness. Demons, Necromancers, Orcs, whathaveyou. The Paladin is expected to know some skills of the land, and of labor. The Paladin is expected to embrace a vigorous work ethic. It is never seen, no matter his prior station in life, as somehow "beneath" him to chop word, or lend a hand in any kind of labor. The Paladin is expected to continue his academic studies, and continue to grow in knowledge and spiritual wisdom. Stupid Paladins are not looked upon with favor, nor are lazy ones, or Paladins who can only swing a sword. The Paladin is expected to act with courage, decisiveness, boldness, integrity, honor, and faithfulness in all things.
The Paladin is expected to dress appropriately for whatever occasions, if possible; The Paladin is expected to assist law enforcement in broader ways, if needed; The Paladin is expected to stand up to tyranny, corruption, and moral decay. He is expected to bring such to the attention of all proper authorities; Should they be slack in observing such, the Paladin is expected to boldly challenge them in righteous chastisement. The purpose is to shame them into fulfilling their noble duties. Should they resist, a knightly challenge to combat is in order. Should they be too large, or unwilling to face such noble judgement by the sword, then the Paladin is charged with first making a public announcement, either in person, or in writing, or by Bard;-- that Judgement and Wrath shall come upon the evil, corrupt people, and all who follow them. Then, bold, decisive action can be launched against the evil noble, merchant lord, or whoever.
In general, the paladin seeks to always minimize civilian casualties in any actions. The Paladin may not pretend to parley, and then ambush the enemy. However, there is no restriction on attacking at night, or using terrain or suprise, to ambush a numerically stronger opponent. If the opponent is willing, the Paladin is always ready to enter into single combat. Naturally, the paladin isn't supposed to engage in lying, cheating, or stealing. That is a PRINCIPLE that is followed by all Paladins. However, that doesn't mean that the Paladin cannot say whatever while in an effort to save someone, or serve some greater purpose.
Likewise, in the constant struggle against the forces of Darkness, the Paladin is expected to keep the "Big Picture" in mind. The most good, in the long run, for the most people. That means that sometimes, innocent civilians may die. That means that some troops may have to be sacrificed, so that more mmight live. That means that if your best friend, even a brother Templar, is a werewolf, he dies. If your brother becomes a vampire, he gets staked and burned. Period.
Does that mean that the Paladin should never attempt, as in the case of the werewolf, to "cure" him? No, it doesn't. Nor does it preclude some thought for reversing, if possible, vampirism. But once again, common sense, grace, and good judgement, are entrusted to the Paladin. It is entrusted, with the knowledge that Paladins are HUMAN or (IMPERFECT) and thus, may on occasion, may make mistakes. It is thus entrusted to the Paladin by the Paladin's gods, by the Church, by the King, and by the People. The benefit of the doubt is given to the Paladin. He is not second-guessed for each and every decision he makes, or fails to make. It is assumed that if the Paladin had thought it was reasonable to save whoever, he would have done so. If the Paladin thought it was possible to take so and so prisoner, he would have done so. The fact that the Paladin didn't, it isn't therefore assumed that he is wrong. People assume that the Paladin executed Judgement, Wrath, or Mercy, as needed, and as the Paladin thought best.
Thus, the burden, the challenge, the divine calling, to be a Paladin is indeed difficult, and trying. Only the best need apply. And many of them will die in the holy, righteous cause. As it is taught to the Paladins while in the Monastary;
"Seek ye to follow the narrow path, which leads to the gate of Righteousness; For the broad way, choose not, for it leads to the way of destruction, the gates of damnation."
In my campaign, the common Fighter, lives under no such requirements, or expectations.
Thus, then, in my view, are the ways of the Paladin.
Of course, any thoughtful questions or analysis is indeed welcomed!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
------------------
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but doing what you have to, despite the fear."
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
mroberon1972 said:
Just the opposite in fact. At the end of Men At Arms Carrot offs the chief bad guy with a sword straight through his chest and into a stone pillar, startling Vimes with the suddeness of it.
A paladin is allowed to show emotion. He is not just an automaton rigidly following Law. He is human and if his god teaches forgiveness, some trangressions can be forgiven without stripping him of paladinhood.
This sounds like a case of GM entrapment.
Besides, a campaign this dark is gonna send a poor paladin on edge!
This sounds like a case of GM entrapment.
Besides, a campaign this dark is gonna send a poor paladin on edge!
Humanophile
First Post
I skipped from the first page to the last, so if this issue has already been raised and dealt with, pardon me.
My big question here is, what is the DM doing expecting the paladin to softpedal in an admittedly gritty game? If this were a high-fantasy heroics game, even a superhero style one, I'd have no problem with holding the paladin to a higher moral standard than usual; Batman never kills people, but then, his foes are relatively straightforwards and comparatively moral. Fiends and dragons may cackle and fight to the death, but human baddies usually surrender to be lead away in chains.
But in such a game, even the fiends usually have a hands-off policy on kids. Blind heroism is allowed because the enemies follow a code of sorts too, so it balances. In a "grittier" game, justice isn't even assured for the heinously guilty, so the good have to be judge, jury, and executioner all on their own, which is as it should be. High fantasy heroes have their perks and drawbacks, as do gritty ones, but it's best to avoid giving all the benefits (or penalties) of one without the other.
So I'm all for the paladin keeping his powers, and the DM asking what sort of tone he wants to set. If villians are obligated to boast their plans before placing the heroes in overly elaborate deathtraps, heroes are obligated to announce their attacks and hold mano-a-mano fights. If villians diddle little kids, heroes should take every tactical advantage they can, provided no innocents are harmed in the process. High fantasy cuts both ways.
My big question here is, what is the DM doing expecting the paladin to softpedal in an admittedly gritty game? If this were a high-fantasy heroics game, even a superhero style one, I'd have no problem with holding the paladin to a higher moral standard than usual; Batman never kills people, but then, his foes are relatively straightforwards and comparatively moral. Fiends and dragons may cackle and fight to the death, but human baddies usually surrender to be lead away in chains.
But in such a game, even the fiends usually have a hands-off policy on kids. Blind heroism is allowed because the enemies follow a code of sorts too, so it balances. In a "grittier" game, justice isn't even assured for the heinously guilty, so the good have to be judge, jury, and executioner all on their own, which is as it should be. High fantasy heroes have their perks and drawbacks, as do gritty ones, but it's best to avoid giving all the benefits (or penalties) of one without the other.
So I'm all for the paladin keeping his powers, and the DM asking what sort of tone he wants to set. If villians are obligated to boast their plans before placing the heroes in overly elaborate deathtraps, heroes are obligated to announce their attacks and hold mano-a-mano fights. If villians diddle little kids, heroes should take every tactical advantage they can, provided no innocents are harmed in the process. High fantasy cuts both ways.
Torm
Explorer
Wow. I agree with EVERYTHING Shark had to say on what it is to be a Paladin. (Except that he's being the tiniest bit hard on them about the sexual relations - a Paladin may enter into any relationship of the flesh that is entered into in complete understanding and honesty, and does not violate the more specific laws of his god.)
So, where is this guy, anyway?
So, where is this guy, anyway?
Last edited:
I think the paladin may have been hasty, but that depends on his deity. As read...I see no grounds for losing his powers.
An interesting point...consider the impact on all the other child molesters in town...if he did lose them.
"Hey guys, what we are doing must be ok! Cause Tommy the Wonderboy lost his powers when he killed Bob! Hooray!"
An interesting point...consider the impact on all the other child molesters in town...if he did lose them.
"Hey guys, what we are doing must be ok! Cause Tommy the Wonderboy lost his powers when he killed Bob! Hooray!"
