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My philosophical approach to the 3rd edition choices

I like to run my games fairly wide open. I use/allow lots of sources in my campaigns. And like you, anything the PCs can do, any option they have, the NPCs may be able to do as well.

But ultimately, I see this as somewhat of an arms race the NPCs can't win.

A player who has the time and inclination can sift, sort, delve and peruse that list of Feats to tweak and optimize his PC to great power. And he can help others do the same. The DM, almost by definition, can't do likewise with any more than a handful of NPCs.

IOW, something like this may just serve to magnify the flaws in the system.

Now, I DO plan on turbocharging PCs a little bit in my next 3.X campaign by using the Midnight Heroic Paths mechanic. But even that doesn't come close to the kind of power bump you're talking about.
 

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I gotta admit, it makes me shudder to think of planning encounters as a DM, where I have to think up 22 feats for each and every monster, plus 6 per level (for 30 orcs?! LOL.)
In a case like that, I'd be more inclined to give the orcs a grouping of feats I know well, and leave it at that. A few nasty Specials for high powered monsters. And bump the ECL of the monsters up appropriately.

But yes, the players will win the Arms Race, for exactly the reasons you mention.
Unless I had a photographic memory (I don't ...) I could not possibly hope to arm my Monsters, as DM, the way the Players will - perusing carefully and cleverly - arm their characters.

(chuckles ruefully)

And thus my Monsters will be systemically exterminated (most messily, massively, and with utter finality) by these Player Characters armed with those armloads of sweets from the candy store. It is inevitable.
The real question for me is: Can I at least make it a fun challenge for them? I have to do that, or the game is boring and I have failed in my job.
 

Consider this, folks ...

In 1E, a fighter received 1/1 attacks per round through levels 1-6, right?
Then, he got 3/2 attacks from levels 7-13.
Then, got 2/1 attacks from levels 14 on.

If the fighter (in most games) used a weapon in both hands, his attacks were doubled. 2/1 attacks (levels 1-6), 3/1 attacks (levels 7-13), and 4/1 attacks (levels 14+.)

If the fighter had weapon specialization (or double weapon specialization), his progression was increased:
3/2 attacks (levels 1-6), 2/1 attacks (levels 7-13), 5/2 attacks (levels 14+.)
With a weapon in both hands: 3/1 attacks (levels 1-6), 4/1 attacks (levels 7-13), 5/1 attacks (levels 14+.)
And most self-respecting fighters took Weapon Specialization!

If this fighter, with a weapon in both hands and weapon specialization, was then Hasted, he aged a year, but he gained double attacks yet again. Thus:
6/1 attacks (levels 1-6), 8/1 attacks (levels 7-13), 10/1 attacks (levels 14+.)
(Someone inevitably popped up with a Potion of Longevity too, in cases where Haste was repeatedly used. Been there, seen that.)

IF the fighter was the lordly cavalier or cavalier-paladin, his progression was even better, reaching 5/2 with a weapon in one hand at around 19th level, or 5/1 with weapons in both hands.

In all cases, the fighter (or cavalier, or cavalier-paladin) received his full THAC0 (BAB in 3E) and full damage bonus, in all attacks, with all weapons.

Penalties for fighting with two weapons was -2 with the good hand, -4 with the off-hand. Dexterity alone could pretty much offset this (18 dexterity, normal with the good hand, -1 with the off hand.) Ambidexterity took 2 off the penalty also.)

-

How to simulate this in 3rd Edition?
A lot of feats. Given sufficient feats, a 3rd Edition warrior could pull this stunt.

*** And that makes a point. To duplicate this 1E (and 2E, really) concept, you need to give the fighter a lot of candy. Now, 3E *does* give the fighter quite a lot of candy (he gets all those fighter feats), but you'd think that every class should have a chance at the goodies, as well as the fighter!
Just my take. ***

-

How to do it, for our 3rd Edition fighter?
Well ...

He has to overcome a -6 with the good hand and a -10 with the off-hand, for fighting with a weapon in either hand.
Also, his strength bonus is one half normal, with the off-hand. He'll need a feat to offset this.

Let's start him with the Ambidexterity feat. That reduces the two handed penalty to -6 / -6.
Let's give him the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. That reduces the two handed penalty to -4 / -4.
Let's give him 18 dexterity (like the 1E fighter with 18 dexterity who rolled 5d6, drop the lowest 2 die rolls, place the resulting numbers as he pleases in his stats.) Now he's normal/normal. He's ready to rock.
He's still 1st level, and his BAB is +1.
He's going to wield a weapon in either hand, and can attack once with both weapons as a Partial Action/Standard Action (3.0) or a Standard Action (3.5) *

* Yes, I realize that 2 attacks normally counts as a Full Round Attack. But I've watched boxers strike with both hands while leaping around the ring. So, it seems reasonable to me to allow a single attack from both hands, while also allowing a Move Action, so long as it is *only* a single attack from each hand.

He's going to take Weapon Focus at 4th level, twice (once for each weapon, long sword and short sword), and Weapon Specialization, twice, when he gets to 4th level (once for each weapon, long sword and short sword.)
This will give him +1 to hit and +2 to damage, the equivalent of 1E weapon specialization (but not double weapon specialization.)
He also takes the feat Off-Hand Weapons Expert, so now he does full strength damage with his off-hand, instead of half strength damage.

Now, he's burned 7 feats so far: Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (long sword), Weapon Focus (short sword), Weapon Specialization (long sword), Weapon Specialization (short sword), and Off-Hand Weapons Expert.
His BAB is now +4, and he gains this BAB with both weapons when he strikes.

At 5th level, his BAB goes to +5/+1, and with his off-hand he is still at +5.
He's got 2 attacks per round at full power, and one attack with lesser BAB.
He does full strength damage with all attacks.
He's almost the equivalent of a 1E fighter of 7th level with weapon specialization, who is carrying a weapon in both hands (that fighter gets 3/1 attacks per round, all at full THAC0/BAB, and all at full strength damage.)

At 9th level (he now has BAB +9) he takes Improved Two Weapon Fighting.
His second off-hand strike is at an additional -5. To counter this, he takes Off-Handed, which reduces the penalty to -3. He takes the Twin Sword feat, so his penalty drops to -1. He takes the Green Viper Style, and he has no penalty to any of his off-hand strikes.
He now has a BAB of +9/+4, with heavy bonuses to hit on most of those attacks, and a load of additional options and benefits as well (+4 to AC, +5 to initiative, and whatnot.)
At 10th level, he goes to BAB +10/+5/+1 and +10/+5, with no penalties and a host of bonuses to most of his attacks.
He can stand up to that 10th level 1E fighter with the weapon specialization and weapons in either hand.

(If the 1E fighter has a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength (+6 to hit, +12 to damage), then our 3E fighter can counter with his 18 strength, plus his Belt of Giant Strength +5, and all the BAB and damage bonuses from all those feats. Since our 3E fighter has Improved Initiative, Lightning Initiative, Green Viper Style, and an 18 dexterity, for a total of +17 Initiative, the 1E fighter (who has a mere +4 to initiative for dexterity - +8 in 3E terms, since 3E uses a d20 and not a d10 for initiative) is in for a nasty - short lived - shock.)

At 15th level, our fighter takes Greater Two Weapon Fighting. He gains a 3rd attack with his off hand ... at -10.
His BAB is +15/+10/+5/+1 and +15/+10/+5. He has 2 attacks at full, 2 attacks at partial, 2 attacks at lesser BAB, and 1 attack at low BAB.
His penalties are 0/0/0/0 and 0/0/-4 (it would have been -10, but Twin Sword reduces it to -8, Off-Hand Weapon Expert reduces it to -6, and Green Viper Style reduces it to -4 ... if the fighter wants to do full damage and has as much damage bonus as I think he has, his strength bonuses to BAB will negate that -6 pretty quickly.)

The 15th level 1E fighter with weapon specialization and a weapon in both hands now has 6 attacks per round, at full bonuses and full damage.
The 15th level 3E fighter has all attacks at full damage. He has 2 attacks at full bonus, 2 attacks at partial bonus, 2 attacks at tertiary bonus, and 1 lesser attack. He has Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization that equals the 1E fighter's weapon specialization (which is +1, +2.) He has Improved Weapon Focus, so he can almost match the 1E fighter's greater specialization (+3, +3) with his own (+3, +2) and he has Weapon Finesse to boot (giving him, with 18 dexterity, +7 and +2 with his off-hand.)

He also has a load of other feats with which to even the odds.
He could have Armor Penetration (+1 BAB against all armor and natural armor), Back to the Wall (+2 to attacks and AC when at 1/4 or less hit points), Battle Hardened (+1 attacks and initiative, and this guy fought those 20 opponents and won ...), Bruiser (double strength damage, so double that +5 belt of strength, and so much for the 1E fighter's Girdle of Giant Strength ...), Combat Instincts (they had *better* hit him ... or chalk up *another* free attack for the 3E fighter), Counterattack (he gets to strike before the enemy, even though the enemy was striking first!), Extra Finesse (+7/+7 with the off-hand now), Frenzied Attack (useful with that Belt of Strength ...), Improved Critical (always useful), Improved Quick Draw ('what happened?!' says the 1E fighter ...), Invincible (+1 attack, +2 damage at 1/2 or less hit points, and it stacks with Back to the Wall so it becomes +3/+4 and +1 AC at 1/4 hit points ... they better not hurt the nice 3E fighter ...), Karmic Strike (which stacks with Combat Instincts, so the 3E attacks *before and during* the enemy attack, as *well* as gaining his full attack!), Lightning Reflexes 2 (which stacks with Karmic Strike and Combat Instincts, so take -4 to attacks, and attack *TWICE* before the opponent attacks and *once* as he attacks, and *THEN* the 3E fighter gets his *full* attacks!), and ...
Nasty stuff.

Yeah, with enough candy, our 3E fighter is going to easily match that 1E fighter, puffed up and arrogant because he has 2 weapons, greater weapon specialization, and a Girdle of Storm Giant Strength, plus the 1E Haste.
He doesn't know what he's up against.

Incidentally, if we exported that 1E Haste into 3E, the 3E fighter would age a year but gain an entire additional *Full Round Action*, the results of which would be ... most messy.
If we exported the 1E Girdle of Giant Strength into 3E, the 3E fighter would gain +12 BAB and +12 damage with it (obviously, he'd have to find such a powerful item ... his fellows couldn't manufacture such a thing.)

Combine that with Haste, and our 1E fighter would ... well, I do believe that he would be asking the DM if he could be a 3E fighter, too!

Well, ok, the 1E fighter is happy with his totally weightless and completely unencumbering +5 Plate Armor.
We'll just export that to 3E too, and give something like that to our 3E fighter, and then the 1E fighter will be begging to come over to the 3rd edition!

There is nothing like a lot of really nice candy. :D

Except, of course, that the death knight yonder also has all this candy, plus his innate abilities and those Power Words, and ...
 
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In the older editions, the barbarian, cavalier, cavalier-paladin, fighter, ranger, and paladin all received all this Good Stuff.
That is, they got all these multiple attacks at full THAC0 (BAB in 3E), plus full damage, plus use off-hand weapons as they pleased, and with dexterity could easily overcome the penalties for two weapon fighting (add in ambidexterity, and it was a cinch.)

In 3E, it requires a lot of feats to do the same thing, but in 3E a fighter can go way beyond this, pulling stunts the characters from the older editions could not dream of doing.
Which is the idea! : )

Now, in 3E, the barbarian, ranger, and paladin cannot do this, because they do not receive fighter feats, but only the standard feats at starting/3/6/9/12/15/18. The monk, who is stuck with fighting hand to hand (poor monks ... useless in 1E, struggling in 3E ... never a break for those poor guys) is also without feats.
So, what to do?
Give them the 3 feats per level! (as single classed, not gestalt, characters.)

If we're doing a gestalt game, then double the feats (since if you have two classes, you really need extra feats to match!) to 6 feats per level.

And now, all these other 3E fighting classes (including the cavalier, who in his various guises is a PrC in 3E) can pull this neat stuff like the fighter can.
Since they are not straight fighters, but have other gifts, they are likely to put their feats in different places than in mere toe to toe two weapon fighting! (the fighter, after all, is expected to get in there and ... fight ... period.)
And other classes, like the wizard and druid and bard, will be certain to put their feat goodness (and skill goodness too) to useful purposes, so they can be nasty and capable and foes-you-don't-want-to-meet, at high levels (or even low levels.)

1E characters, were they to ever meet 3E characters, would never again sneer, confident in the supremacy of their mighty 1E weapons, armor, magic, and other goodness. No, they wouldn't be sneering. They'd be running for their lives, from those 3E characters.
Because those 3E characters cleverly and craftily built themselves up, with all that choice available to them, while the 1E characters were complacent with granted abilities alone.
Now the time of reckoning is at hand, and the cleverness and planning of the 3E characters, it all pays off!
 

(muses)

I would have placed this thread in the Pathfinder forum, but I do not know enough about Pathfinder to know if it is relevant. Pathfinder's approach to feats and other 3.5 concepts is unclear to me.

I wish enough people still played 3rd edition that this thread would have garnered many replies (approving or scornful.) But it seems most are over with Pathfinder or on to 4th Edition.
I am behind the times. I always was late to the party.

Then again, 3.0 had only a very short life of 3 years. 3.5 had a relatively short life of 5 years. 1E and 2E, interchangeable games, went on for decades.

Still, I am late to the party, as usual.
 


Let's give him 18 dexterity (like the 1E fighter with 18 dexterity who rolled 5d6, drop the lowest 2 die rolls, place the resulting numbers as he pleases in his stats.) Now he's normal/normal. He's ready to rock.

Dexterity does zilch for 2 weapon fighting in 3.0 and 3.5.
* Yes, I realize that 2 attacks normally counts as a Full Round Attack. But I've watched boxers strike with both hands while leaping around the ring. So, it seems reasonable to me to allow a single attack from both hands, while also allowing a Move Action, so long as it is *only* a single attack from each hand.
Um, houserules mean the Fighter sucks unless you change the rules.

He also takes the feat Off-Hand Weapons Expert, so now he does full strength damage with his off-hand, instead of half strength damage.
3rd party feats?

He takes the Green Viper Style, and he has no penalty to any of his off-hand strikes.
[/quote]
Another 3rd party feat?
He also has a load of other feats with which to even the odds.
He could have Armor Penetration (+1 BAB against all armor and natural armor), Back to the Wall (+2 to attacks and AC when at 1/4 or less hit points), Battle Hardened (+1 attacks and initiative, and this guy fought those 20 opponents and won ...), Bruiser (double strength damage, so double that +5 belt of strength, and so much for the 1E fighter's Girdle of Giant Strength ...), Combat Instincts (they had *better* hit him ... or chalk up *another* free attack for the 3E fighter), Counterattack (he gets to strike before the enemy, even though the enemy was striking first!), Extra Finesse (+7/+7 with the off-hand now), Frenzied Attack (useful with that Belt of Strength ...), Improved Critical (always useful), Improved Quick Draw ('what happened?!' says the 1E fighter ...), Invincible (+1 attack, +2 damage at 1/2 or less hit points, and it stacks with Back to the Wall so it becomes +3/+4 and +1 AC at 1/4 hit points ... they better not hurt the nice 3E fighter ...), Karmic Strike (which stacks with Combat Instincts, so the 3E attacks *before and during* the enemy attack, as *well* as gaining his full attack!), Lightning Reflexes 2 (which stacks with Karmic Strike and Combat Instincts, so take -4 to attacks, and attack *TWICE* before the opponent attacks and *once* as he attacks, and *THEN* the 3E fighter gets his *full* attacks!), and ...
Nasty stuff.
You are now using 9 3rd party feats...

So this means you aren't even using most of the rules in WotC...
 

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