D&D 5E My thoughts on 5e (mostly martial power source)

[StAlda]

Here is my take on what I'd like to see in 5e. This is mostly from a Martial power source point of view. I think every power source should have its own feel (like how Psionics has a separate feel). Please bear in mind, most examples below are square pegs driven into round holes, it is the concept/spirit I’m trying to convey.

• Basic Attack should scale (I’m not sure of the interval to increase the scale, but I gave it a shot below)
• at-wills, encounters & dailies have unique effects added on the Basic Attack
• use cards to hold power stats, weapon stats, etc. I don't want D&D to become a card game either, I just mean cards to hold all relevant info Including optional data for that sliding scale of how detailed do you want the game, see Attack Bonus/Penalty in sample card below. And, any condition effects (dazed, stunned, etc.) that the power may cause.
• weapons/implements should determine attack attribute (not powers, with exceptions)
• quick cast rituals (similar to the scroll options in the latest dragon mag)
  
• get rid of roles, marking, challenges
• powers should be grouped by power source (not classes)
• Classes have access to power sources (Fighter: Martial, Ranger: Martial, Primal)
• no generic “always on” attack or damage enhancing feats

Example of weapon card data
---------------------------------------------
Longsword
Martial
Type: Melee (other types: Thrown, Projectile, Shield)
Attribute: Strength
Attack: Strength vs. AC (a Mace could be Strength vs. Reflex due to its impact nature)
Die: d8
Size: Medium
Prof: +2
Min Attribute: 8

Optional
Attack Bonus/Penalty
Chainmail: -4 dam
---------------------------------------------

Basic Melee Attack
Fighter Attack 1
At-Will ? Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Hit:
Level 1: 1[W] + weapon Attribute modifier damage
Level 5: 2[W] + weapon Attribute modifier damage
Level 10: 3[W] + weapon Attribute modifier damage
Level 15: 4[W] + weapon Attribute modifier damage
Level 20: 5[W] + weapon Attribute modifier damage
Level 25: 6[W] + weapon Attribute modifier damage
Level 30: 7[W] + weapon Attribute modifier damage


Reaping Strike
Fighter Attack 1
At-Will ? Martial
Requirement: Melee Weapon
Miss: Half weapon attribute modifier damage. If you’re wielding...

Steel Serpent Strike
Fighter Attack 1
Encounter ? Martial
Requirement: Melee Weapon
Hit: +1[W] and target is slowed...

Brute Strike
Fighter Attack 1
Daily ? Martial
Requirement: Melee Weapon
Hit: +2[W]
(the beauty of this is that at 17th level this power is still relevant, giving you a 6[W] strike instead of 4)

Crack the Shell
Fighter Attack 5
Daily ? Martial
Requirement: Melee Weapon
Hit: the target takes ongoing 5 damage and a –2 penalty to AC (save ends both).

Vorpal Tornado
Fighter Attack 17
Encounter ? Martial
Requirement: Melee Weapon
Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Hit: -2[W] You push the target 1 square, and it is knocked prone.

Exacting Strike
Fighter Attack 17
Encounter ? Martial
Requirement: Melee Weapon
Attack: +6

Cruel Reaper
Fighter Attack 27
Encounter ? Martial
Requirement: Melee Weapon
Close burst 1
Primary Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Hit: -3[W]
Effect: You can shift 2 squares, and then make a secondary attack.
Secondary Target: Each enemy in close burst 1
Hit: -3[W] + Strength modifier damage.

Powers like Reaving Strike, Anvil of Doom, Talon of the Roc would be obsolete (the only thing they have over a 1st level power is the damage)

Cage of Chains and Chains of Sorrow would be Flail weapon powers accessible when you have proficiency. So it no longer needs to be 23rd level, a 1st level can use it with 1st level damage.

And I just reached my typing limit.....be kind.

 

[Mark CMG]

While I appreciate the work and effort you put into this, I'm not a fan of the whole "power source" or even "powers" concept for a fighter/martial character.

 

[trancejeremy]

Yeah, I'm afraid power sources is going to be one big stumbling block. How to cater to people who like them vs those that don't?

Beyond that, if it's too much to type, it's too much to play easily.

With that said, both sides need to compromise I imagine we will see more than just the basic attack - roll d20 to hit then roll damage.

 

[HeinorNY]

While I appreciate the work and effort you put into this, I'm not a fan of the whole "power source" or even "powers" concept for a fighter/martial character.

Me neither.
What about you can do whatever you want as a fighter?
Player describes it to DM, DM assigns a penalty/drawback and define the effect if player succeeds, player rolls.

 

[TwinBahamut]

While I appreciate the work and effort you put into this, I'm not a fan of the whole "power source" or even "powers" concept for a fighter/martial character.

I'm not really a fan of the idea of Fighter powers, since that term implies a unity of mechanics across the game like in 4E, but Fighters absolutely need to have some equivalent (maneuvers, I suppose). Returning to a situation where Fighters can only make basic attacks would be unacceptable.

Power sources are also fine, since that's really a thing that has always been in the game. Characters have always been martial, arcane, divine, psionic, or whatever. 4E's main problem was that it forced a class to be just one of those. I'll agree with the topic starter that modifying the power source system so that a class can use multiple power sources would be a big improvement.

Also, as I mentioned in other threads, I rather like the idea of "power lists" that are shared at least a bit by different classes of the same power source. This is particularly true for martial characters. I don't want 4E's unified power system, but power source-specific mechanics and/or mechanical elements are a tradition for the game. It would be nice to see that extend to martial combat just as much as it was true for Arcane spell lists or Psionic power lists.

I'll disagree with a lot of the other particulars mentioned in the first post, though. If nothing else, I like roles (just not 4E's roles).

 

[kinem]

First of all, there should be no martial daily powers, and no "encounter" powers period (whether martial, magical, or whatever). If you want an ability to refresh, make it based on time (such as rest 5 min to regain it, or the like), not on so-called "encounters". Yes, I'm not a 4E fan

What I'd like to see for martial characters is more like Pathfinder's Dirty Trick options, but altered to not suck. (Effects that last only one round, automatically do suck. Blindness? Could be permanent, under the right circumstances. Who said that save or lose abilities must only be magical?)

 

[StAlda]

While I appreciate the work and effort you put into this, I'm not a fan of the whole "power source" or even "powers" concept for a fighter/martial character.

Then don't play martial powers, just have Basic Attacks since they themselves scale. Treating each weapon as unique would also allow us to harken back to the 1e weapon vs. armor table (without having to look up the table every combat) the adjustments would be with the weapon data/card.

I know some things I wanted to convey were lost in the brain dump, but that was one of them.

 

[Mark CMG]

Then don't play martial powers, just have Basic Attacks since they themselves scale. Treating each weapon as unique would also allow us to harken back to the 1e weapon vs. armor table (without having to look up the table every combat) the adjustments would be with the weapon data/card.

I know some things I wanted to convey were lost in the brain dump, but that was one of them.

I'd rather they not be built into the core of 5E rather than have to either extract them and/or find some alternate that manages to offset their removal.

 

[StAlda]

First of all, there should be no martial daily powers, and no "encounter" powers period (whether martial, magical, or whatever). If you want an ability to refresh, make it based on time (such as rest 5 min to regain it, or the like), not on so-called "encounters". Yes, I'm not a 4E fan

I see encounter and daily powers as "you generally only get that kind of opening once an encounter or once a day". As you get higher level you can find more opportunities (more Dailies/Encounters) to perform unique attacks/manuevers. As I stated above the encounters and dailies are add ons to the basic attack, in 4e terms they would all be considered "Reliable".

There are many things about 4e to not be a fan of....

 

[Ahnehnois]

I see encounter and daily powers as "you generally only get that kind of opening once an encounter or once a day".

You get that one opening regardless of how many battles you fight, how you fight them, or who you're fighting against? Yikes. Probably better to just leave off that explanation.

There many things about 4e to not be a fan of....

***
I think the fighter is better served by combat maneuver rules that work, and some kind of combat reaction/block/parry system, as well as a more lethal hp system.

 

[StAlda]

You get that one opening regardless of how many battles you fight, how you fight them, or who you're fighting against? Yikes. Probably better to just leave off that explanation.

Yes, that why I said "generally". It all comes out in the wash.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm fine with 'encounter' powers. It's a short-hand for "using this ability depletes some resource like vigor or magical energy that you can regain if you take a rest of five minutes."

It makes a lot of sense to me, though I would prefer if non-magical 'encounter powers' all used the same pool of energy. I can be vigorous X times without resting, so I'll use them for special moves A, B, and Q.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It makes a lot of sense to me, though I would prefer if non-magical 'encounter powers' all used the same pool of energy. I can be vigorous X times without resting, so I'll use them for special moves A, B, and Q.

This is a rather important distinction. I think use limitations for fighters become potentially workable if framed and designed as a function of fatigue instead of some mystical resource of fortune or narrative currency.

 

[Mark CMG]

This is a rather important distinction. I think use limitations for fighters become potentially workable if framed and designed as a function of fatigue instead of some mystical resource of fortune or narrative currency.

Of course it raises the question, if someone has three encounter moves that use a certain amount of "vigor" and they are allowed to use them each once during an encounter, can they just use the same one three times?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Of course it raises the question, if someone has three encounter moves that use a certain amount of "vigor" and they are allowed to use them each once during an encounter, can they just use the same one three times?

Any combination, one hopes. It's not uses of an ability, it's an accumulation of fatigue points (or something to that effect).

 

[KarinsDad]

While I appreciate the work and effort you put into this, I'm not a fan of the whole "power source" or even "powers" concept for a fighter/martial character.

I'd prefer it to be the "Physical Power Source" instead of Martial.

The classes in this source do everything manually without any sort of supernatural, mystical, or magical abilities. They attack with normal ranged and melee weapons, when other classes get some type of "beyond human" abilities, they get superior human abilities like bonuses to Athletics, Perception, Endurance, Acrobatics, Melee and Ranged fighting with or without weapons, etc.

I actually like the concept of a source of power, but I would prefer if WotC gave every single power source a significant amount of uniqueness. For example, only the Divine and Primal power sources can heal. Only the Arcane power source can Teleport. Only the Primal power source can Shape Change and have Animal Companions, etc. Although the Arcane and Psionic power sources might not be able to heal, they might be able to mitigate damage with Temporary Hit Points or Resistance.

And, I would remove the terminology "power source" and remove the concept of powers. I would make spells, spells. Prayers, prayers. Melee attacks, melee attacks, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see encounter and daily powers as "you generally only get that kind of opening once an encounter or once a day". As you get higher level you can find more opportunities (more Dailies/Encounters) to perform unique attacks/manuevers.

This is a rationalization of the game mechanics. Because the game mechanics are this way, this is how one would go about rationalizing it. Instead of the game flowing from common sense and plausibility, it flows from the game mechanics chosen. It should flow in the opposite direction where the game mechanics reflect what makes sense in character.

Instead of Encounter and Daily powers, there should be maneuvers that result in more damage or the foe is easier to hit, or whatever, but also result in the PC lowering his guard a little or getting tired, or some such detriment in return. That way, the player decides when to use them and when not to, but s/he can use them every single round if desired. It then doesn't become an issue of frequency of use, it becomes an issue of frequency of desire of use due to the slight disadvantage of doing so.

 

[FireLance]

First of all, there should be no martial daily powers, and no "encounter" powers period (whether martial, magical, or whatever). If you want an ability to refresh, make it based on time (such as rest 5 min to regain it, or the like), not on so-called "encounters". Yes, I'm not a 4E fan

Yeah, this is one of the most common misconceptions about 4e.

The term "encounter" suffers from the problem of having different meanings in different contexts. In can be used in the most comonly-understood sense of a challenge to be overcome, which can comprise both combat and non-combat elements.

When used in the context of an "encounter power" it means a power that can be regained after a short rest (usually five minutes long), in much the same way as a daily power can be regained after an extended rest (usually six hours long) or (in previous editions) a daily spell or ability can be regained after a night's rest. PCs who do not rest do not regain their encounter powers.

When used in the context of a duration that "lasts till the end of the encounter", the maximum duration is still capped at five minutes even if the encounter takes longer than five minutes. However, although there will of course be exceptions, encounters do not normally last longer than five minutes and the PCs would normally take a short rest at the end of each encounter. Hence, such effects typically would last for a single encounter and would not carry on to the next since they would terminate during the short rest. PCs who wish to continue enjoying the effect could simply choose not to take a short rest.

If you are not a 4e player, you might want to take a quick look at this primer on 4e terminology.

 

[trancejeremy]

If you are not a 4e player, you might want to take a quick look at this primer on 4e terminology.

That 4e has such terminology in the first place is the problem. Not knowing the specific meanings of such is not the problem, it's that they even exist.

It's not really a logical thing. It just feels wrong to a lot of people. It's sort of like the New Coke vs Coke Classic. The New Coke did probably taste better, it's just people were used to the old one and were stubborn about it.

And frankly, this is the problem that 5e faces. If you include that stuff you are going to alienate non-4e fans, and if you don't, you're going to alienate 4e fans.

The way I read it (and I could be completely wrong) is that they are going to try to solve this problem by guiding 4e fans toward their D&D board games, where new terminology won't seem so foreign to long time D&Ders.

 

[Zireael]

I'd put clear explanations of terminology the moment it is introduced, and I'd use manevuers from Tome of Battle instead of the 4e powers.