New Article: Death and Dying

[Chris_Nightwing]

Yay! They removed one of the last mechanics in the game that doesn't use a d20- the roll for stability. I hope they got rid of all percentile-based rolls.

Let's look at the odds of dying. I ran this thru a quick javascript simulation with 100,000 tests and got:

Saved=27215 (0.27215)
Killed=72785 (0.72785)

So when using the table in the article, you have over a 70% chance of dying if nobody comes to your aid. That's seems nasty enough to me.

If you calculate the probabilities of surviving/dying from each of the three strikes, it works out as follows (from raising the matrix of transitional probabilities to an infinite power):

State / Recovery / Death

Down / 0.271 / 0.729
1 Strike / 0.190 / 0.810
2 Strikes / 0.100 / 0.900

 

[Sir Brennen]

Yes, I get what happened from a flavor standpoint.

But there's no getting around the fact that, from a mechanics standpoint, the orc just healed the fighter of a good chunk of HP by stabbing him in the gut.

That bothers me (but, again, I'll have to use the rule for a while to find out how much of a problem it actually is).

Perhaps thinking more of the character's condition rather than the exact numeric value of his hit points will help. Don't worry about how many points rolling that 20 gives him compared to what he had when the orc took him down - the fighter is still bloodied and in pretty bad shape.

 

[Grog]

I don't get why they need to keep in negative hit points. Seems like extra bookkeeping, especially since they count towards dying but not towards healing. Why not just have any damage inflicted on a dying PC force another 'save versus death'?

Because then you could easily end up with a situation where it's better to be unconscious than conscious when you're hit for a large amount of damage.

 

[TerraDave]

Negative Hit Points: Essentially, having these allows for the case where one massive blow can kill someone outright. Even if its a small chance. (Can a 15th level brute do 65+ points of damage on a crit, I am guessing they could). I am also wondering about "kicking the corpse": if the monster takes a few stabs at the down charecter, then negative HPs accounts for it.

Though, I am still not 100% convinced they are needed.

 

[Imban]

If you calculate the probabilities of surviving/dying from each of the three strikes, it works out as follows (from raising the matrix of transitional probabilities to an infinite power):

State / Recovery / Death

Down / 0.271 / 0.729
1 Strike / 0.190 / 0.810
2 Strikes / 0.100 / 0.900

Thanks for doing this math - seems like if you have resource-based healing you'd rather conserve, it'd worth it to fall on your sword and see if you recover or take two strikes first if you're below 4.75% of your maximum hit points. Of course, we don't know if this sort of resource-based healing is present in 4e, and it very well may not be.

(By which I mean, if your party healer has a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and wants to zap you up to full, it behooves you to fall on your sword if you are at 9/200 or less HP, because over infinite repetitions you'll gain more HP from stabilizing up to 50 than the additional healing being at 0 instead of 1-9 will cost the healer.)

 

[mhensley]

If you calculate the probabilities of surviving/dying from each of the three strikes, it works out as follows (from raising the matrix of transitional probabilities to an infinite power):

State / Recovery / Death

Down / 0.271 / 0.729
1 Strike / 0.190 / 0.810
2 Strikes / 0.100 / 0.900

Thanks, I'm glad to see that the math backs up my brute force method.

 

[HeinorNY]

Negative Hit Points: Essentially, having these allows for the case where one massive blow can kill someone outright. Even if its a small chance. (Can a 15th level brute do 65+ points of damage on a crit, I am guessing they could). I am also wondering about "kicking the corpse": if the monster takes a few stabs at the down charecter, then negative HPs accounts for it.

Though, I am still not 100% convinced they are needed.

There may be some abilities that allow characters to fight even when they have negative HPs.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Thanks, I'm glad to see that the math backs up my brute force method.

Well, here's some more for you! If you go down in combat, these are your chances over the course of the following rounds:

Time / Recovered / Died

3 rds later / 0.143 / 0.091
4 rds / 0.181 / 0.228
5 rds / 0.211 / 0.365
6 rds / 0.232 / 0.478
7 rds / 0.246 / 0.564
8 rds / 0.256 / 0.624
9 rds / 0.262 / 0.664
10 rds / 0.266 / 0.689

And so on..

 

[Voss]

Agreed. I'm not a fan of rail roading DM'ing by fiat. If an NPC is important to your oh so precious plot, keep them out of combat with the PC's.

Hmm. That's kind of the opposite of what I meant. One, no NPC should be plot critical to the point that killing them off ruins the game. Second, keeping them out of combat requires just as much (if not more) annoying fiat. Its more the feel that the game is providing big giant signs for the players in combat. If an opponent goes down during combat but is still twitching, the game is essentially pointing it out to the players with a big sign that says 'A clue!'

I also just don't like the set up that PCs are super-duper special guys that operate in the world according to completely different rules. If 3rd level fighter Mike and 3rd level brute Bob jump off a cliff, Bob is dead and Mike is just out of it if someone is there to heal him, or just hits the 5% 'spontaneously regenerates' roll

 

[JohnSnow]

Also, here's another pretty absurd corner case:

A fighter has 200 hit points at maximum, and is down to 5 HP. An orc stabs him for 6 points of damage, taking him down to -1. The next round, the fighter rolls a 20, and pops back up with 50 HP. So the orc just healed the fighter for 45 points by stabbing him in the gut.

I know that hit points are abstract, but that's pretty ridiculous.

Is it? Given the 15th-level sample fighter has 120 hp, one with 200 is probably about 25th-level, or more. Consider this example, which you might recognize. Any similarity to real fictional characters is wholly intentional.

Two swashbucklers are engaged in a running duel. The first (let's call him "Indigo") has pursued the second (who we'll call "Baron Rungen") down a corridor, but unknown to Indigo, Baron Rungen took the rogue training feat and is waiting in ambush. Indigo charges into the room, and Rungen throws his dagger into Indigo's gut, getting a critical hit and doing max damage on his sneak attack. We'll assume Indigo is 7th-level with about 72 hp, so this bloodies him but he doesn't die. He does however, slump against the wall.

Indigo: "Sorry father. I tried."
Baron Rungen: "You must be that spanish brat I taught a lesson to all those years ago. Have you been chasing me your whole life only to fail now? That's the worst thing I've ever heard. How marvelous."
[Indigo is bloodied but not dead. He uses his Second Wind, pulls out the knife and stands.]
Rungen: Good heavens. Are you still trying to win?
[Indigo falls back against the wall.]
Rungen:You've got an overdeveloped sense of vengeance. It's going to get you into trouble someday.
[Rungen draws his sword and lunges at Indigo who then forces the blade to his left shoulder. Again Rungen lunges at Indigo and the blade is deflected to Indigo's right arm. Now Indigo loses more hp, plunging him to -1 hp and dying. He falters.]
[Indigo rolls a 20 on his recovery action. He now has 18 hp. He's still bloodied, but very much alive.]
[Rungen swings his sword but Indigo blocks it and then begins advancing.]
Indigo: [weakly] Hello. My name is Indigo Montalvo. You killed my father prepare to die.
[Falling on a table, Indigo uses his Extra Second Wind. He now has 36 hp.]
[Rungen attacks and Indigo blocks four times before he continues to advance on Rungen.]
Indigo Montalvo: [Louder] Hello. My name is Indigo Montalvo. You killed my father prepare to die.
[Now Rungen attacks five times and Indigo blocks every single one.]
Indigo Montalvo: [Shouting!] Hello. My name is Indigo Montalvo. You killed my father prepare to die.
Baron Rungen: Stop saying that!

And the fight continues. And ends with Rungen's death. Indigo's injury, while seemingly deadly at first, doesn't, in the end, seem that bad.

How is that NOT what we're trying to duplicate?