D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[Aldarc]

It is easier to assume the best in the class that is to be gimped than the worst. They want the wizard to look better as to justify the nerf.

Since when does "nerf" mean that other classes get nice things and one class loses nothing at all?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Since when does "nerf" mean that other classes get nice things and one class loses nothing at all?

Certainly class balance can only make sense in comparison? Like if all classes except barbarians have their hit points doubled then that was in effect a 'nerf' to the barbarians.

 

[Minigiant]

Certainly class balance can only make sense in comparison? Like if all classes except barbarians have their hit points doubled then that was in effect a 'nerf' to the barbarians.

But the boost is not even that big.

Like Spell Versatility is a HUGE boost for Ranger but it is still the worst of the warrior class at fighting. It boosts their exploration strength a lot but it rangers are still worst at all nonranged combat.

 

[Vael]

Certainly class balance can only make sense in comparison? Like if all classes except barbarians have their hit points doubled then that was in effect a 'nerf' to the barbarians.

Wow, 1 spell change doubles a Sorcerer's hitpoints? Seriously, what a ridiculous analogy. Nothing changes when initiative is rolled, both classes still have the exact same resources they had before, same number of slots, number of spells available to be cast.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Wow, 1 spell change doubles a Sorcerer's hitpoints? Seriously, what a ridiculous analogy. Nothing changes when initiative is rolled, both classes still have the exact same resources they had before, same number of slots, number of spells available to be cast.

The example was merely to illustrate the principle, not to suggest an equivalence in the scope.

 

[Aldarc]

Certainly class balance can only make sense in comparison? Like if all classes except barbarians have their hit points doubled then that was in effect a 'nerf' to the barbarians.

That still requires redefining what “nerf” conventionally means.

 

[Helldritch]

That still requires redefining what “nerf” conventionally means.

No. When everyone is receiving a more or less significant boost that leave you behind in a dust cloud, you got nerfed.

Not only did it boost classes that did not need this kind of boost (but would required an other kind of boost) but the one class your are "competing" with gets better and way better than you at what you are supposed to be the absolute best.

And with a single feat, that class gets your second self defining tool: "ritual caster".

The wizard has been nerfed to the ground without even getting an official nerf. He still can do his versatility and ritual casting, but the sorcerer does it way better now.

 

[Aldarc]

No. When everyone is receiving a more or less significant boost that leave you behind in a dust cloud, you got nerfed.

That's still not what "nerf" means in most conventional uses of the term.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The bottom line is known-spell casters now have access to a great number of spells than a Wizard does (typically... in theory, yes a wizard's list is longer--but no wizard will normally have access to even half that number of spells due to cost and time, even if your DM is nice about it).

Every other prepared spell caster gets access to its entire list, even if that list is significantly smaller than the wizard.

The PC I posted a while back had access to 84 wizard spells at 12 level. And personally, I worked like hell to get all the spells she has at level 12, spending nearly 11,000 gp to add them into my book. I did pretty well, considering my minimum would be 28... I managed to get 3 times that number! I would be royally screwed if my spellbook ever got destroyed! No other class has this onus on them.

By comparison: a Wizard: 216 (potentially, but this would cost as much as 34,600 gp to add them all and 173 "8-hour" days of entry time--nearly half a YEAR!)

• Sorcerer: 133 (more spells & Metamagic)
• Druid: 114 (more spells * Wild Shape--okay not great unless you're a Moon Druid-- which is why they have a longer list? )
• Bard: 101 (more spells (includes 2 for Magical Secrets) & Inspiration, Expertise, and Jack of All Trades)
• Cleric: 87 (more spells & Channel Divinity)
• Warlock: 87 (more spells (includes Patron Expanded Spell List) & Eldritch Invocations)
• My PC: 84 (I get the best Ritual Casting, but those spells I know (16 of the 18 Wizards get) are already included in the total shown)

With Spell Versatility, every single full-caster class has access to more spells than my PC which I spent 18 months IRL playing. Oh, and they all get access to those spells FOR FREE without having to spend any time beyond prep for prepared-spell casters.

So, tell me, what feature do Wizards now have which makes them really compare to all the other casters?

• A better spell selection? Sure, IF you can find them and have the gold and time to put them in your book--all DM fiat.
• Ritual Caster? Yes, they have the best version, but so can any other caster by taking the Ritual Caster feat.
• Arcane Recover? Made up for by Sorcery Points and/or Twinned Spell, Natural Recovery for Land Druids, and Short Rest spamming for Warlocks.

In comparison with Sorcery Points... I get 6 spell levels back for Arcane Recovery, say a 1st and a 5th, which a Sorcerer would only have to spend 9 of their 12 Sorcery Points to also have (leaving them some points for metamagic OR for another spell slot); and they can do it as a bonus action (well, 2 bonus actions for 2 spells) while I need a short rest.

Finally the number of prepared spells versus known spells. I have INT 18, so 16 prepared spells.

• Cleric and Druid, the same as me with WIS 18.
• Bard: 15 (-1)
• Sorcerer: 12 (-4)
• Warlock: 11 (-5)

So, the only thing a Wizard really has over known-spell casters with access to many of the same spells, is about 4 or so more prepared spells. Great. That is awesome if the spells I need are in my frickin' spellbook! If not, I am screwed. Everyone else? Just get in a long rest and if the spell is in your list--you have it.

I know many of you feel this isn't a big deal. Sure, its "optional" and such, but it pisses all over the Wizard for no reason other than people who agreed to play a class with a restriction (you only have a limited number of spells you know, and can still swap them out when you level... but you get other cool features to compensate) and whined about it afterwards.

It would have been so easy to help out Sorcerers and Warlocks (who I agree get screwed on the number of known spells) by buffing them in another way. You add your CHA modifier to the number of spells you know, etc. or something else.

That's it. Time for a little relaxation and TV. FWIW, my job interview went well today--so here's hoping to a new work place!

Sigh... rant over. Sorry, folks... I am done with it. If nothing I said changed your mind or impressed on you how badly this new feature can hurt the need for a Wizard in the party, no worries. Have fun playing whatever you play.

 

[Minigiant]

Sorcerers still stuck at being anything but a blaster though.