D&D 5E New class options in Tasha

[Gladius Legis]

The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.

And you still don't get them from the actual Spellcasting feature. The language is quite clear.

 

[Kurotowa]

The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.

If you're that sloppy with the rules, then it's no wonder the power gamers are running roughshod over your games. It's like saying, "This class feature lets me magically enchant oranges, and this apple is also a mostly round fruit, so obviously it works on them too."

 

[Helldritch]

If you're that sloppy with the rules, then it's no wonder the power gamers are reigning roughshod over your games.

1) Powergamers do not rule my games. I have the control because I have the experience. That is a rude way to assume things. And I am not sloppy. If a spell counts as spell of the class, then for all intent and purpose, it is a spell of the class and it is now part of your spell list. The only limitation would be to get a spell of the same level as the original choice.

In addition, accusing me of sloppiness means you are accusing a lot of other posters of the same thing as I am not the only one to see things this way. You should be more careful in your insults.

 

[Charlaquin]

If you ever saw a powergamer or min/maxer, you'd understand.

I don’t think it’s a good policy to design around curtailing powergamers. Powergamers first of all are mostly a boogeyman, just like gotcha DMs. Yes, they exist, but they’re not as widespread nor as serious of a problem as the internet might lead one to believe. Moreover, the solution to powergamers (much like the solution to gotcha DMs) is not to warp the game’s design in hopes of thwarting them, but to simply not play with them.

 

[Undrave]

The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.

Even with that interpretation, that doesn't mean ALL the spells are added to your class spell list, only the two you SPECIFICALLY chose to become Bard Spell. It would just mean you can forget them and then relearn those TWO SPECIFIC SPELLS again.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The spell counts as a bard spell for all intent and purpose. You will cast it with your charisma and not wisdom or intelligence. It is now a bard spell. The same goes for the other classes similar features.

Sorry, @Helldritch , but I have to agree with the others on this point. I agree Spell Versatility is way too good and an horrible idea, but your take on Magical Secrets is incorrect.

For reference:

If my bard learned Fireball as a magical secret, Fireball is now a bard spell.

Later when I leveled I decided I really don't need it, my new spell must also be from the Bard Spell List ("with another spell from the bard spell list")

FWIW, JC clarified this in SA: Was it ever said whether a Bard can retrain spells gained through Magical Secrets, or not?

So, let's say I swapped out Fireball for Major Image. Next level, I can swap it out to get Fireball back because Fireball is a bard spell (when I took it for magical secrets), otherwise I am limited to other Bard spells.

In other words, you can't use the spell swap to pick up spells unless they are Bard spells, even the spells you gained from magical secrets. If you want to allow that in your game, go nuts, but you are making the feature more powerful than intended.

 

[Helldritch]

Even with that interpretation, that doesn't mean ALL the spells are added to your class spell list, only the two you SPECIFICALLY chose to become Bard Spell. It would just mean you can forget them and then relearn those TWO SPECIFIC SPELLS again.

On that you're right. But you whenever you change them, you have potential access to two or all spell lists! That is a lot of versatility. Way more than any class ever had in any edition of D&D. You realize that in the hands of a lore bard, you have the equivalent of a limited wish spell each long rest? Because you will be able to cast any spell you wish.

I don’t think it’s a good policy to design around curtailing powergamers. Powergamers first of all are mostly a boogeyman, just like gotcha DMs. Yes, they exist, but they’re not as widespread nor as serious of a problem as the internet might lead one to believe. Moreover, the solution to powergamers (much like the solution to gotcha DMs) is not to warp the game’s design in hopes of thwarting them, but to simply not play with them.

Really? Powergamers are bogeyman for you? Gotcha DMs are bogeyman too? And powergamers are more devious than you think. They will subtely (more or less depending on the DM) do their stuff without you noticing before it is too late.

The goal is not to thwart them, that is a last chance response. It is to not to tempt them do it first.
And for the record, I am a power gamer, I don't mind power gamer because I can manage them. But I spend so much time coaching young DMs about their "out of control" games that whenever I see a potential abuse of the rules, I think of those that do not have the experience that I have and that will fall into the "trap".

As for not playing with power gamers. Why would I restrain myself from playing with some of my best friends? It is better to reach an understanding and a mutual agreement that to stop seeing them at the gaming table.

 

[Helldritch]

Sorry, @Helldritch , but I have to agree with the others on this point. I agree Spell Versatility is way too good and an horrible idea, but your take on Magical Secrets is incorrect.

For reference:
View attachment 126622

If my bard learned Fireball as a magical secret, Fireball is now a bard spell.

View attachment 126623

Later when I leveled I decided I really don't need it, my new spell must also be from the Bard Spell List ("with another spell from the bard spell list")

FWIW, JC clarified this in SA: Was it ever said whether a Bard can retrain spells gained through Magical Secrets, or not?

View attachment 126624

So, let's say I swapped out Fireball for Major Image. Next level, I can swap it out to get Fireball back because Fireball is a bard spell (when I took it for magical secrets), otherwise I am limited to other Bard spells.

In other words, you can't use the spell swap to pick up spells unless they are Bard spells, even the spells you gained from magical secrets. If you want to allow that in your game, go nuts, but you are making the feature more powerful than intended.

I do not have access to twitter. So I went to SA on Wizard's site. I stand corrected.

 

[Undrave]

On that you're right. But you whenever you change them, you have potential access to two or all spell lists! That is a lot of versatility. Way more than any class ever had in any edition of D&D. You realize that in the hands of a lore bard, you have the equivalent of a limited wish spell each long rest? Because you will be able to cast any spell you wish.

You totally misunderstood what I just said. You don't get access to the full spell list of those other class. You get TWO additional secrets, that means TWO spells are added to the Bard Spell List for you, and that's it. Just those two.

 

[EscherEnigma]

Most of the "variant class features" don't bother me, but the spell versatility one... I'm conflicted.

On one hand, it basically turns "spells known" casters into "spells prepared" casters, but with a slower process for changing their selection and different "spells prepared" mechanics (all existing spells-prepared casters follow the same progression, based on stat and level, all existing spells-known casters have unique progressions in their class tables).

And, well, that rankles a little.

On the other hand, what I've seen is that, outside of special situations, spell-casters (known or prepared) rarely change their spell selection, and when they do, it's not the spells they use all the time they change out, but the spells that weren't as useful as they expected them to be.

And between the scenario of "the sorcerer has spells they never use" and "the sorcerer uses more of their spells", I think the second option is obviously superior. Players should be using more of their features, and this helps that.

So it rankles a little, but next time I GM, I'll almost certainly be using it.