D&D 5E New D&D Next Playtest package is up (19/9/2013) [merged threads]

[Li Shenron]

So I gotta ask...have you played those levels and found it to be the case, or are you going off theory on that and what you heard and the supposed intent?

I am going off the theory, based on what Mearls has explicitly written in his articles. We playtested only a few sessions and didn't look at monsters XP values, we just levelled up at some point once we thought we were kind of "done" story-wise and playtest-wise. I am assuming that since Mearls explicitly mentioned apprentice levels will be over quickly, if this isn't the case now with current XP it means they will change the XP to make it true, or alternatively they will change their target for such speed, but haven't mentioned this so far.

 

[Mistwell]

I am going off the theory, based on what Mearls has explicitly written in his articles. We playtested only a few sessions and didn't look at monsters XP values, we just levelled up at some point once we thought we were kind of "done" story-wise and playtest-wise. I am assuming that since Mearls explicitly mentioned apprentice levels will be over quickly, if this isn't the case now with current XP it means they will change the XP to make it true, or alternatively they will change their target for such speed, but haven't mentioned this so far.

Or they changed their minds. I dunno, but so far we've found levels 1-3 to be as slow-going as any other version of D&D, perhaps even a tad slower. Those level 1 monsters being only 10 XP each (split between each party member) makes it pretty necessary to fight higher level monsters to have hopes of leveling early.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Or they changed their minds.

In my experience reading these boards (and some others), people [fans] are very reluctant to allow this possibility. I regularly see people basing opinions on what they have been "promised", where the basis of that promise is a tweet or a blog post from sometime last year.

the possibility thast the design team has learned something over the process of the public playtest, or that they have taken feedback onboard and revised their opinions, is seldom considered.

 

[D'karr]

In my experience reading these boards (and some others), people [fans] are very reluctant to allow this possibility. I regularly see people basing opinions on what they have been "promised", where the basis of that promise is a tweet or a blog post from sometime last year.

the possibility thast the design team has learned something over the process of the public playtest, or that they have taken feedback onboard and revised their opinions, is seldom considered.

That's just crazy talk!

 

[SkidAce]

In my experience reading these boards (and some others), people [fans] are very reluctant to allow this possibility. I regularly see people basing opinions on what they have been "promised", where the basis of that promise is a tweet or a blog post from sometime last year.

the possibility thast the design team has learned something over the process of the public playtest, or that they have taken feedback onboard and revised their opinions, is seldom considered.

Madness!

 

[Zaruthustran]

Honestly, at this point I miss AD&D's take on multiclassing. 4E - eventually - got to an interesting state. 3E's could be horribly broken that I really don't enjoy seeing Next using a similar system.

Cheers!

I agree. As this discussion shows, 3e style multiclassing leads to the game being designed with multiclassing as the primary design consideration, and single-class being suboptimal.

Consider two melee builds, one multiclassed and the other single classed.

First up is a half-orc Str 18 Con 14 Dex 8 Int 8 Wis 13 Cha 14 Paladin 5 / Fighter 3 / Ranger 3 / Barbarian 1. Dual Wield, Protection, and Defense as Fighting Styles, and the feat Great Weapon Master. Dual-wield hand axes at 1d6 + 4 base damage (with the second one at 1d6+1d6+4 from Slayer's Momentum). Add in Divine Favor for another +1d8 to both, and add +1d6 to both attacks from Hunter's Mark. All these attacks are at +2 from Sacred Weapon. If you really want to finish the job, throw in smites.

So: raging (spells cast prior to rage), with Sacred Weapon, he has three attacks per round, +1 AC, and his opponent has disadvantage.

First: +10 attack for 1d6 + 1d8 +1d6 + 6 (9-26 damage).
Second (Extra Attack): +10 attack for 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d8 +1d6 + 6 (10-32 damage).
Third (Two Weapon Fighting): +10 attack for 1d6 +1d8 +1d6 + 6 (9-26 damage).

Total single-round spread of 28-84 damage. Nova: add +7d8 to one attack (range of 15-76 damage) and +6d8 to the other two if he's smiting, for a grand total single-round damage spread of 71-296 damage. If he uses Action Surge, that spread does not quite double (because he has to use lower-level smites) to a single-round damage spread of 139-542. Critting on 19 and 20, and an additional attack if he crits or drops a foe.

Going ahead and taking those additional levels in Fighter and Ranger for the stat bumps to Str and Cha would add a welcome +2 to hit and +1 to damage.

Compare to Fighter 12. Half Orc Str 20, Con 16, Dex 14, Wis 10, Int 8 Cha 8. Path of Warrior. Defense Style and Protection style. Great Weapon Master, Tough, Heavy Armor Master, and +2 Str bump. He has three attacks per round, resists 3 damage (from pierce, bludgeon, slash), no move penalty to AC, +1 to AC, and his opponent has disadvantage. Greatsword.

First: +9 attack for 2d6 + 5 (7-17 damage).
Second (Extra Attack): +9 attack for 2d6 +5 (7-17 damage).
Third (Extra Attack): +9 attack for 2d6 +5 (7-17 damage).

Total single-round spread of 21-51 damage. Nova: if he uses Action Surge, that's a single-round spread of 42-102 damage. But, he crits on 18-20 instead of 19-20, so that's something, especially considering that a crit or drop = additional attack.

Taking two more levels of fighter gets him Indomitable and another bump, which he'd put into Con for another 14 HP, 1 DR, and +1 to Con saves. Handy for the amazing Defy Death + Indomitable combo: two chances to save at +8 vs DC 15 means he's very hard to actually kill.

The 20 Str fighter hits less often than the 18 Str Paladin hybrid, for roughly a quarter of the damage. He has 24 more hit points from Toughness and can spend an action to gain 13-18 temporary hitpoints, but the hybrid has 2 temporary hit points when he rages and can spend an action to heal 25.

It seems like the fighter is the poorer choice until level 14, when Indomitable and Defy Death turn him into an action movie hero. But that's a long time to suffer as a suboptimal melee combatant. Caveat of "but the Hybrid is using limited abilities, and can only do his thing 2-4 times per long rest" does apply, but honestly, most players (and DMs) will go ahead and allow that long rest.

 

[gyor]

That a bad comparison, fighters don't become full awesome until high levels (15) and higher when single classing pays off. I will admit the fighter needs to be buffed early game.

How about Paladin multiclass vs. full Paladin, a much fairer comparison.

Your above Paladin vs. A full Paladin.

Full Paladin

Feats Dual Wielding, Mounted combat, Tactical

First attack 1d12 lance + strength mod + 1d8 improved smite + 4d8 smite using a third level spell
Second Attack 1d12 lance + strength mod + 1d8
Twf attack 1d6 + strength mod + 1d8

Plus when I'm mounted I add 1 point of damage for each 10 feet and a horses speed is 60 feet so that's 6 extra damage per attack. You can also add a buff spell, like an aura or more offence based buff.

Oh and for defence I have aura of Protection and Aura of Courage, which benifits my mount as well.

 

[Kobold Stew]

That a bad comparison, fighters don't become full awesome until high levels (15) and higher when single classing pays off.

It's actually a good comparison, for exactly that reason. How many games play at level 15+? Few, I suspect. I want multi classing to make sense at be balanced across the board, but I'd look specifically to levels 6-12 as the point where it needs to be right.

 

[gyor]

Even at mid levels fighters are far from weak or gimped.

Anyways has anyone else noticed Assassins make the best horsemen?

Take the mounted combat, charge, arcane iniate (and the other feats in that line so you can gain haste spell). With haste, cunning action, and a charge with a lance you can move what 420 feet in a charge with advantage if the target is medium sized or smaller. So that's 42 + 5 + sneak attack + strength mod + 1d12 damage and an insane amount of movement. I'm choose find familiar as my 1st level spell and use it to spy on my enemies.

 

[Gundark]

In my experience reading these boards (and some others), people [fans] are very reluctant to allow this possibility. I regularly see people basing opinions on what they have been "promised", where the basis of that promise is a tweet or a blog post from sometime last year.

the possibility thast the design team has learned something over the process of the public playtest, or that they have taken feedback onboard and revised their opinions, is seldom considered.

But if we take away exaggeration and over reacting the discussion threads would only be a few pages long...