D&D 5E New D&D Player Survey!

beancounter

(I/Me/Mine)
I mean long term the people who are younger now will grow to be the older in 10 years... and some of us old timers will move on (or worse) from gaming... if they don't target youth they lose D&D forever.

Yep, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't. Appealing to the preferences of the majority makes sense.

I'm just saying that if they already have a plan/direction, the survey really isn't necessary.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
That's ... kind of the problem. Sure, you can get something that can sorta do everything ....

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But is this the tool that you actually want to use for everything? :)
Your point could as easily apply to D&D as a game as it could to the Forgotten Realms as a setting. ;)

Yes, it's perfect.
I find it a bit "meh." To me, the Forgotten Realms feels more like a setting where books happen than a setting where play happens. This is also my issue with Dragonlance.

There are other D&D-brand kitchen sinks that I prefer for this latter purpose: e.g., Eberron, Nentir Vale, etc. Greyhawk feels more like a kitchen sink setting meant for play than books as well, so it has more appeal to me than FR or DL, but it also feels like a relic of an older bygone model of what a D&D-brand Kitchen Sink looks like.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Don't confuse cause and effect: once the FR was out there, Greenwood ultimate fanfiction pastiche cleaned up for family audiences by Grubb, the genie was out of the bottle. WotC keeps going back because it is popular, not the other way around.
I'm not confusing cause and effect. That's like saying that the popularity of previous editions of D&D have nothing to do with how popular it is compared to a brand new RPG without any brand recognition. D&D is the 800 lb gorilla of RPGs - but so much of that is because it already has an established base and brand.

4e is a great example of people upset about splitting the fanbase - because the size of the fanbase from the previous edition is a nigh-uncatchable lead that has nothing to do with quality of a new edition. PF was a "more true" continuation of the previous edition and it got the fans.

Same with FR - if you have established a large fanbase because you've pushed it more than others, or in many cases to the exclusion of others, any claim that it is the most popular on strictly it's own merits needs to try to normalize measurements based on that push (or lack). It is not an argument that can stand on it's own without that.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I find it a bit "meh." To me, the Forgotten Realms feels more like a setting where books happen than a setting where play happens. This is also my issue with Dragonlance.

There are other D&D-brand kitchen sinks that I prefer for this latter purpose: e.g., Eberron, Nentir Vale, etc. Greyhawk feels more like a kitchen sink setting meant for play than books as well, so it has more appeal to me than FR or DL, but it also feels like a relic of an older bygone model of what a D&D-brand Kitchen Sink looks like.
My experience with the FR is entirely as game material, never did the fiction. As a bland canvas full of material, it's fantastic. Most of those others are a little too specific in their flavor profile to be as useful.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I'm not confusing cause and effect. That's like saying that the popularity of previous editions of D&D have nothing to do with how popular it is compared to a brand new RPG without any brand recognition. D&D is the 800 lb gorilla of RPGs - but so much of that is because it already has an established base and brand.

4e is a great example of people upset about splitting the fanbase - because the size of the fanbase from the previous edition is a nigh-uncatchable lead that has nothing to do with quality of a new edition. PF was a "more true" continuation of the previous edition and it got the fans.

Same with FR - if you have established a large fanbase because you've pushed it more than others, or in many cases to the exclusion of others, any claim that it is the most popular on strictly it's own merits needs to try to normalize measurements based on that push (or lack). It is not an argument that can stand on it's own without that.
TSR threw everything at the wall, no half measures, FR is what stuck. Because it works for people's gaming needs.
 


Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
TSR threw everything at the wall, no half measures, FR is what stuck. Because it works for people's gaming needs.
I deny your claim that everything was thrown at the wall equally. Again, look at what settings ... no, sorry, setting, was the only one Wizard's published officially for a significant fraction of 5e's lifespan. Look at the list of settings in the D&D survey and tell me with a straight face that there were no half measures and each was supported similarly in each edition of D&D.

Because if they weren't "thrown at the wall" equally, then that doesn't refute the point I made.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I deny your claim that everything was thrown at the wall equally. Again, look at what settings ... no, sorry, setting, was the only one Wizard's published officially for a significant fraction of 5e's lifespan. Look at the list of settings in the D&D survey and tell me with a straight face that there were no half measures and each was supported similarly in each edition of D&D.

Because if they weren't "thrown at the wall" equally, then that doesn't refute the point I made.
What TSR failed to notice is that sometime around 1994 the wall they were throwing at fell down.....
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I ran into an error (likely previously discussed here at length) where a question asked how much D&D I have played other than 5th edition in the past 5 years (I answered none), and then asked why I have not played any D&D in the past 12 months. What?
 

Azzy

KMF DM
I ran into an error (likely previously discussed here at length) where a question asked how much D&D I have played other than 5th edition in the past 5 years (I answered none), and then asked why I have not played any D&D in the past 12 months. What?
That's strange. I answered the same as you, but didn't receive that error.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I ran into an error (likely previously discussed here at length) where a question asked how much D&D I have played other than 5th edition in the past 5 years (I answered none), and then asked why I have not played any D&D in the past 12 months. What?
I got almost the reverse: I told it I'd played D&D within the last (12 months?) and then got a barrage of 5e-specific questions regarding that time frame; as if it assumed that the D&D I'd played during that time had been 5e.

Lots of zeroes in those answers. :)
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I deny your claim that everything was thrown at the wall equally. Again, look at what settings ... no, sorry, setting, was the only one Wizard's published officially for a significant fraction of 5e's lifespan. Look at the list of settings in the D&D survey and tell me with a straight face that there were no half measures and each was supported similarly in each edition of D&D.

Because if they weren't "thrown at the wall" equally, then that doesn't refute the point I made.
So what? In a money making enterprise, what makes money tends to get attention over the long run. It really is as simple as that.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
So what? In a money making enterprise, what makes money tends to get attention over the long run. It really is as simple as that.
Sure, but that's not the point under discussion.

Your original thesis was that "...your finger exactly on why the Forgotten Realms is perennially the most popular across 5 Editions: it is the easiest to mold and customize because it isn't burdened with excess flavor."

My point was that it's popularity has a number of reasons, especially the large amount of support, and your claim of why it was the most popular doesn't stand up.

Let's make sure we don't wander from debating a specific point to just trying to win an argument on the internet.

Are you now agreeing that a good measure of it's popularity was from the pushes that Wizard's gave it?
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Sure, but that's not the point under discussion.

Your original thesis was that "...your finger exactly on why the Forgotten Realms is perennially the most popular across 5 Editions: it is the easiest to mold and customize because it isn't burdened with excess flavor."

My point was that it's popularity has a number of reasons, especially the large amount of support, and your claim of why it was the most popular doesn't stand up.

Let's make sure we don't wander from debating a specific point to just trying to win an argument on the internet.

Are you now agreeing that a good measure of it's popularity was from the pushes that Wizard's gave it?
Chicken and egg problem. They go hand in hand.

The secret sauce to get things going was Greenwood, in my book: he happily, joyfully supported the Setting for decades. Can't buy that sort of ambassadorship. Fairly similar to the current popularity of Exandria, actuslly.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Chicken and egg problem. They go hand in hand.

The secret sauce to get things going was Greenwood, in my book: he happily, joyfully supported the Setting for decades. Can't buy that sort of ambassadorship. Fairly similar to the current popularity of Exandria, actuslly.
Except that you have yet to demonstrate that "least flavor so easiest to mold" is actually a contributor to the FR popularity in any meaningful way. You haven't provided anything to support your point, you've just been trying to shoot mine down. Now that you acknowledge what I was saying, you can't magially handwave and grant an unsupported point the same weight.

Someone could make that "the most lore to know" from all of the novels and books makes it the hardest to run. Some could argue that with what the average gamer knows about Greyhawk that it has the point you are trying to support.
 

Azzy

KMF DM
Ugh. The FR tangent is really something. It also is lacking in context. Forgotten Realms took over as the "default" setting (as it were) after the ouster of Gygax and was the only setting that was supported post-Gygax to the end of 1e aside from from two one-off books (Greyhawk Adventures and Dragonlance Adventures and a series of modules (Dragonlance and possibly for OA—I don't remember if the first OA modules predate or postdate 2e).

When 2e dropped, FR remained the flagship setting (with GH not receiving any attention except to spit on it until From The Ashes, and Dragonlance only getting support for Taladas, the other continent). Then the glut of settings began—though those that weren't FR mostly received only limited-run support (like Spelljammer, Dark Sun, etc.) with only FR getting consistent support.

3e came and made GH the default setting (which, in reality, ensured that the setting had very little actual product support), while FR dominated the scene with a seemingly endless supply of products. Aside from some one-off books, it wasn't until 3.5 and Eberron that WotC supported anything aside from FR.

4e, I wasn't around for, but it seems the default Nentir Vale setting got a lot implied support (but no actual campaign setting book), and then there was FR to carry the day with Eberron and Dark Sun seeing some love.

5e has been mostly about the FR again (though mainly through the adventures), but since WotC has been pushing one-off setting books like a door-to-door encyclopedia salesman.

The Forgotten Realms has been set up for success since TSR first released the grey box with more support than any other setting. Sure, there (especially in 1e) are some great things about the setting that helped made it popular, but to contend that a consistent glut of support, that other settings didn't have, hasn't factored into FR's popularity would be grievously mistaken. FR has been the favored child since it first release and it shows.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Except that you have yet to demonstrate that "least flavor so easiest to mold" is actually a contributor to the FR popularity in any meaningful way. You haven't provided anything to support your point, you've just been trying to shoot mine down. Now that you acknowledge what I was saying, you can't magially handwave and grant an unsupported point the same weight.

Someone could make that "the most lore to know" from all of the novels and books makes it the hardest to run. Some could argue that with what the average gamer knows about Greyhawk that it has the point you are trying to support.
Hey, just calling it like I see it. My experience of the Forgotten Realms supports that, and Perkins has said that Forgotten Realms products sell to a majority of fans because a little over a quarter play in the Forgotten Realms, and a little more than a quarter play in a generic homebrew and like to have raw material (such as the portable FR Adventure books). Like, dislike it, take it, or leave it. The Setting works well for generic high fantasy, it is wonderfully vanilla.
 

MNblockhead

A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Anecdotally, in my experience, gamers who are interested in highly stylized, deep settings, gravitate to other systems. For D&D it seems the most popular settings, either published by TSR/WotC or by third parties (Mystara, Greyhawk, Forgotton Realms, Paizo's Golarian, Kobold Press's Midgard, Frog God Game's The Lost Lands) are all kitchen sink settings with slightly different spice racks.

I believe that decades of D&D have shown that the market gravitates towards kitchen sink settings. A DM can run such a setting and easily mix in elements from other settings. Players can easily work in their character concepts and just join a session or campaign without having to think too much about whether their characters will be a good fit. DMs who home brew their own setting can easily integrate content from a kitchen sink setting.
 

South by Southwest

Incorrigible Daydreamer
Hey, just calling it like I see it. My experience of the Forgotten Realms supports that, and Perkins has said that Forgotten Realms products sell to a majority of fans because a little over a quarter play in the Forgotten Realms, and a little more than a quarter play in a generic homebrew and like to have raw material (such as the portable FR Adventure books). Like, dislike it, take it, or leave it. The Setting works well for generic high fantasy, it is wonderfully vanilla.
I think that's right, and I also think it's a truth hard to see sometimes if one frequents EN World. The people who congregate here tend to be pretty serious about the hobby and often lose sight of just how unserious it is to so, so many others. In the party I'm DMing you would be very hard pressed to find anyone who fusses much about lore inconsistencies in FR or any other settings; they just wanna eat pretzels, fight monsters, and visit strange new lands.

I think most casual players are like this and I also think most players are casual players. I certainly was until it came time for me to DM.
 


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