D&D 5E New Drow cultures coming in Starlight Enclave, the Lorendrow and the Aevendrow

[Scribe]

Most people in a dictatorship aren't evil, though. They're normal people trying to live life under horrible circumstances.

Right, but the rulers of a dictatorship would be, otherwise it wouldnt remain a dictatorship with horrible circumstances for the non-evil people that defect.

Thats the point.

 

[Mecheon]

And apparently none of the dwarf spellcasters cast any divinations to find out where the duergar went, and Moradin never sent any visions about it either...

The only way I've been able to get it work is by having them just unable to find out where they went, unable to send any visions or messages for a simple lack of knowledge. How can they not know? Because Illithids be that way. Making it so gods can't find or detect anything they're doing. Beings in the one spot deities can't do anything about them of

Of course I just came up with that on the spot and its not official, but, really should be

 

[MonsterEnvy]

you have an evil race like the Githyanki, who are evil because...they are on a crusade to rid the universe of brain-eating octopi? Okay, their methods are a little overkill...more The Punisher than Gandhi, but still...they were food for those octo-dudes for centuries.

That's not why the Githyanki are evil. The Githyanki and Githzerai had their cultural split because after ending the greater Mind Flayer Empire, the Githyanki wanted to take over the spot the Mind Flayers occupied and conquer worlds while the Githzerai wanted to rebuild their lost culture. They both still hate Mind Flayers and send parties out to kill them, but the Githyanki have becomes Astral pirates, raiders, and slavers who are indoctrinated to obey their Lich Queen without question. Their evil is unrelated to the Mind Flayers.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm just curious why it is that all elves with dark skin live under cover of shadow and darkness. Why is that behavior shared across cultures? What's the justification? It's not an unreasonable question.

Not just dark skinned elves. Most elves live under forest canopies or in caves, and prefer starlight to sunlight.

 

[Remathilis]

Most people in a dictatorship aren't evil, though. They're normal people trying to live life under horrible circumstances.

Well, that's complicated.

Your typical Drow might not be summoning demons, raiding the surface for slaves or engaging in treacherous backstabbing politics, but how many are accepting or tolerant of it? They see little need to change such systems, keep a small shrine to Lolth, and gladly reap the rewards the systems provide to them? Yeah, there are Drow merchants, scribes, healers and other mundane people who do mundane jobs and don't rock the boat, and while that doesn't make them capital E Evil, it's kinda hard to say they are Lawful Good either.

Without wanting to stray into any RW debates, let's just say there are people who are or have been tolerant, accepting, or even in favor of all sorts of atrocities, even if they themselves never engage in said acts. And I don't need to get into how propaganda and religion can further cement such ideas into the hearts and minds of even the smartest of people. The banality of evil is still Evil.

And if course that doesn't take into account both the centuries of living in such a society, especially by a race that is as naturally long lived as elves, nor any magical effects both Lolth and the Underdark put on them. It is completely possible that a drow raised outside of Menzoberranzan could be of any alignment, but drow raised in the city (and outlying areas) are overwhelmingly evil aligned due to a combination of indoctrination from birth and magical effects that influence behavior and suppress free will. Which is why the Aven and Loren drow are important to present the vision of a drow culture that, outside of the Underdark, drow culture doesn't have to be full Evil. That said, most of the drow in the Underdark are going to be evil, sympathetic to evil, or at best indifferent to it.

 

[Faolyn]

Well, that's complicated.

Your typical Drow might not be summoning demons, raiding the surface for slaves or engaging in treacherous backstabbing politics, but how many are accepting or tolerant of it? They see little need to change such systems, keep a small shrine to Lolth, and gladly reap the rewards the systems provide to them? Yeah, there are Drow merchants, scribes, healers and other mundane people who do mundane jobs and don't rock the boat, and while that doesn't make them capital E Evil, it's kinda hard to say they are Lawful Good either.

The problem here is the exact same thing can be said about many other societies in-game as well. If you play a game where there's evil monsters (literal or humanoid) terrorizing the countryside, or where the political or religious ruler is corrupt and doing evil things, then by this definition any villager (human, elf, halfling, whatever) who knows about it but is just trying to get by, unwilling (or unable) to stand up to them, is at least a bit evil as well.

Heck, how many games have featured horrible monsters or evil armies attacking one area when, just a hex or two away according to the map, there's a city of good aligned elves or dwarfs doing nothing until the PCs think to go to them and get help (which itself usually involves the PCs having to convince them to join in).

I don't know why the typical drow commoner is considered evil, even lowercase-e evil, when the typical non-drow commoner who does the exact same thing isn't.

 

[Dire Bare]

The problem here is the exact same thing can be said about many other societies in-game as well. If you play a game where there's evil monsters (literal or humanoid) terrorizing the countryside, or where the political or religious ruler is corrupt and doing evil things, then by this definition any villager (human, elf, halfling, whatever) who knows about it but is just trying to get by, unwilling (or unable) to stand up to them, is at least a bit evil as well.

Heck, how many games have featured horrible monsters or evil armies attacking one area when, just a hex or two away according to the map, there's a city of good aligned elves or dwarfs doing nothing until the PCs think to go to them and get help (which itself usually involves the PCs having to convince them to join in).

I don't know why the typical drow commoner is considered evil, even lowercase-e evil, when the typical non-drow commoner who does the exact same thing isn't.

I just finished a re-watch of Star Trek Deep Space Nine not too long ago, so it's somewhat fresh in my memory. I think @Remathilis makes a good point about members of a society accepting the evil status quo . . . but also takes it a bit too far, IMO.

Are Cardassians (from Deep Space Nine) evil? The tv show explores that dynamic quite a bit over the seven seasons, and overall tries to paint a complicated picture, both of Cardassian society and the individual Cardassians you meet in each episode. You have Cardassians convinced they are doing what is right, while committing atrocities . . . you have Cardassians being accepting, but not engaging, in atrocities . . . you have Cardassians who, at one point, were sure of their convictions, but have come to wrestle with guilt over their actions . . . and you have Cardassians who've been fighting the good fight from the beginning . . . .

EVIL in real life is hard to pin down and define clearly . . . I'm not convinced it truly exists, certainly not as some cosmic force shaping the destinies of entire peoples. I enjoy fiction, and gaming, that tries to model that to a degree. It's why I'm not a fan of D&D alignment at all . . . I'm okay with cosmic evil in fantasy gaming, just not entire races or cultures painted with it.

 

[Remathilis]

I just finished a re-watch of Star Trek Deep Space Nine not too long ago, so it's somewhat fresh in my memory. I think @Remathilis makes a good point about members of a society accepting the evil status quo . . . but also takes it a bit too far, IMO.

This isn't too be taken as a defense of "always Neutral Evil", but a good example of why "usually Neutral Evil" is plausible. Your typical drow commoner may have been born with the same capacity for good and evil as anyone, but after exposure to the Faerzress from conception, indoctrination from priestesses, relentless propaganda, and thousands of years of history, it's not too surprising many of them have a warped view of good and evil that could probably be best described as "indifference vs cruelty" when adjusted for their Overton Window.

That's not to say the typical Drow commoner is necessarily a monster; he loves his wife, raises his kids, doesn't cheat his regular patrons and plays cards with his friends over drinks after a long day. He just doesn't have an emotional response when drow raiders bring a fresh set of slaves down to be worked to death. He's thankful he doesn't have to do that hard labor. When Lolth demands blood sacrifice, he hopes it won't be his family but isn't upset that it's his neighbors who are chosen. Rare is the Drow from Menzoberranzan that sees past the brainwashing and wants something better than what that society offers.

Which is why I think it's safe to say while an individual Drow is more complex and nuanced, Drow culture is easily defined as evil on a macro-societal scale. There isn't enough "good" thinking drow to counteract the large number of "actually evil" Drow in power and the scores of "neutral" Drow who either support them or don't care enough to stop it. And most of the drow that adventurers are likely to encounter (warbands, raiders, arcane demonologists, priestesses of Lolth) are the ones who drank the Kool aid and are providing the support to keep the corrupt system in place.

Perhaps if you were able to destroy Lolth, smash the matriarchy, lead the drow out of the Underdark and give them a hefty dose of deprogramming therapy, you'd see a more normal curve of good/neutral/evil in drow than you do in normal Menzoberranzan drow. But as the system is set up, drow culture doesn't allow for that kind of distribution.

 

[Remathilis]

The problem here is the exact same thing can be said about many other societies in-game as well. If you play a game where there's evil monsters (literal or humanoid) terrorizing the countryside, or where the political or religious ruler is corrupt and doing evil things, then by this definition any villager (human, elf, halfling, whatever) who knows about it but is just trying to get by, unwilling (or unable) to stand up to them, is at least a bit evil as well.

Heck, how many games have featured horrible monsters or evil armies attacking one area when, just a hex or two away according to the map, there's a city of good aligned elves or dwarfs doing nothing until the PCs think to go to them and get help (which itself usually involves the PCs having to convince them to join in).

I don't know why the typical drow commoner is considered evil, even lowercase-e evil, when the typical non-drow commoner who does the exact same thing isn't.

There is a difference between knowing and not acting and tolerating or accepting. You can know about something, disagree with it, and still be powerless to stop it. I propose that drow know about the atrocities being performed and either a.) Shrug with indifference since it doesn't affect them; b.) Accept it as necessary for the good of the drow; or c.) Support those who are doing it, even if they aren't doing it themselves. I don't see many who fall into d.) Know it's wrong and are unable to stop it.

And yes, there is still some pragmatism among good aligned peoples. Perhaps save for some rather zealotrous paladins, most cultures don't fight perpetual endless war (especially longer-lived races who measure time and resources differently, they're not all humans with masks, remember?) So elves and dwarves in true Tolkien fashion don't tend to get involved in their neighbor's problems. Tolkien also (rightly) calls them out in this flaw too; the dwarves are decimated and broken, the elves in retreat. Even the hobbits are not able to save themselves until Frodo and company return with the knowledge of how to fight to save the Shire. But in the end they do fight for what is right.

I just reject the notion the common Drow, halfling and human all coming from different societies would have the same moral compass and thus your typical drow farmer would have the same objections to slavery and demon worship thay a halfling farmer would. They all have the same capacity for good and evil, but the drow have been conditioned to see things in a way others would call "evil"

 

[Faolyn]

There is a difference between knowing and not acting and tolerating or accepting. You can know about something, disagree with it, and still be powerless to stop it. I propose that drow know about the atrocities being performed and either a.) Shrug with indifference since it doesn't affect them; b.) Accept it as necessary for the good of the drow; or c.) Support those who are doing it, even if they aren't doing it themselves. I don't see many who fall into d.) Know it's wrong and are unable to stop it.

Why not? Going from the stats we have, the leaders are all incredibly high-leveled priests (Matron Mothers are CR 20; Priestesses of Lolth are CR 8), many of whom have pet demons (draegloth are CR 7; yochol are CR 10), concubines who are high-leveled wizards (Favored Consort is CR 18), and tons of assassins, warriors, and spies at their beck and call.

What is average drow commoner (CR 0 to maybe CR 1/4) going to do against that? Are drow commoners even allowed to leave their cities freely if they want to flee, or do they have to sneak out and hope they're not caught?

I think that, considering those circumstances, it's ridiculous to assume that since most drow have no actual way to fight against their evil leaders without getting captured, tortured, and killed (or worse), that they are also by necessity evil.