D&D 5E New Drow cultures coming in Starlight Enclave, the Lorendrow and the Aevendrow

[Remathilis]

None of them are evil though. Because alignment doesn't exist anywhere but D&D.

Amazing. Every word in that sentence is wrong.

Evil is a description of both intent and execution. You don't need alignment to tell that something or someone is evil. Serial killers are evil. Even if their actions are the result of mental defect, their actions still make them evil. It doesn't change the evilness of thier actions just because they can't or don't understand the morality of it. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.

And those mooks who collect a paycheck from AIM or Hydra? Evil. They know what those organizations are about. They know the guy with the skull face who cuts thier checks is bad. You want to argue not all Kree agree with the Supreme Intelligence or Thanos's army was full of unwilling conscripts from his many conquests? Fine. Captain Marvel still had no problem frying them by the dozens.

Evil wasn't created by Arneson and Gygax in 1974. Evil doesn't have to mean a word on a character sheet. So stop the cute "evil is just a word used to demonize" unless you're willing to defend a lot of heinous things as just "misunderstood" and "from a certain point of view".

Oh, and lots of RPG systems use alignment, either overtly (Rifts) or in some sort of corruption system (Dark Side points, Humanity) that tracks your decent into darkness.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Amazing. Every word in that sentence is wrong.

Evil is a description of both intent and execution. You don't need alignment to tell that something or someone is evil. Serial killers are evil. Even if their actions are the result of mental defect, their actions still make them evil. It doesn't change the evilness of thier actions just because they can't or don't understand the morality of it. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.

And those mooks who collect a paycheck from AIM or Hydra? Evil. They know what those organizations are about. They know the guy with the skull face who cuts thier checks is bad. You want to argue not all Kree agree with the Supreme Intelligence or Thanos's army was full of unwilling conscripts from his many conquests? Fine. Captain Marvel still had no problem frying them by the dozens.

Evil wasn't created by Arneson and Gygax in 1974. Evil doesn't have to mean a word on a character sheet. So stop the cute "evil is just a word used to demonize" unless you're willing to defend a lot of heinous things as just "misunderstood" and "from a certain point of view".

Oh, and lots of RPG systems use alignment, either overtly (Rifts) or in some sort of corruption system (Dark Side points, Humanity) that tracks your decent into darkness.

Amazing. Every word in this post is wrong.

As serial killer does not do what they do "because they are evil". That is a gross oversimplification. They do it for a multitude of complex reasons. People might label their actions "evil", but that is not the reason they act that way.

People do not join an organisation, ether real or fictional "because they are evil". They do it because they believe what it is doing is right, or because they don't care and want the money, or because PLOT demands there be minions, and doesn't bare close examination.

I have a friend who thinks Capitalism is the most evil thing in the world. She is always ranting about "the evil f*ing Tories". Others just as passionately believe Socialism is evil, or Religion, or Atheism. Pretty much everything is evil to someone. Unless you can show objectively why some of those people are wrong, then everyone is evil. And, as Syndrome so nearly said "when everyone is evil, no one is".

 

[Zardnaar]

Amazing. Every word in that sentence is wrong.

Evil is a description of both intent and execution. You don't need alignment to tell that something or someone is evil. Serial killers are evil. Even if their actions are the result of mental defect, their actions still make them evil. It doesn't change the evilness of thier actions just because they can't or don't understand the morality of it. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it.

And those mooks who collect a paycheck from AIM or Hydra? Evil. They know what those organizations are about. They know the guy with the skull face who cuts thier checks is bad. You want to argue not all Kree agree with the Supreme Intelligence or Thanos's army was full of unwilling conscripts from his many conquests? Fine. Captain Marvel still had no problem frying them by the dozens.

Evil wasn't created by Arneson and Gygax in 1974. Evil doesn't have to mean a word on a character sheet. So stop the cute "evil is just a word used to demonize" unless you're willing to defend a lot of heinous things as just "misunderstood" and "from a certain point of view".

Oh, and lots of RPG systems use alignment, either overtly (Rifts) or in some sort of corruption system (Dark Side points, Humanity) that tracks your decent into darkness.

IRL a lot of people don't think they're evil and it is somewhat objective.

Aztecs for example thought it was fine for human sacrifice. Of course all their neighbors hated them.

They thought if they didn't sacrifice people the world would end it the sun wouldn't rise iirc.

D&D evil is a cosmic force, filtered through gamers perception of course.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Which is the real Batman? Answer, they all are. Batman is too complex to be defined by two letters.

 

[Remathilis]

Amazing. Every word in this post is wrong.

As serial killer does not do what they do "because they are evil". That is a gross oversimplification. They do it for a multitude of complex reasons. People might label their actions "evil", but that is not the reason they act that way.

People do not join an organisation, ether real or fictional "because they are evil". They do it because they believe what it is doing is right, or because they don't care and want the money, or because PLOT demands there be minions, and doesn't bare close examination.

I have a friend who thinks Capitalism is the most evil thing in the world. She is always ranting about "the evil f*ing Tories". Others just as passionately believe Socialism is evil, or Religion, or Atheism. Pretty much everything is evil to someone. Unless you can show objectively why some of those people are wrong, then everyone is evil. And, as Syndrome so nearly said "when everyone is evil, no one is".

So you are of the opinion Nazi's aren't evil. Bold take.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So you are of the opinion Nazi's aren't evil. Bold take.

"Nobody cares about their motives anymore". I.e. it is pure subjectivity. Julius Groat (who?) is making my argument, not yours. They are evil because people call them evil. They did not do what they did because they where evil. Can you honestly say that if you had been in Germany in the 1930s you would have opposed the Nazis? If you can, I call you a liar.

It's a dangerous lie too. It's the lie that says "it can never happen here, because we aren't evil".

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Which is the real Batman? Answer, they all are. Batman is too complex to be defined by two letters.

I think you're not arguing against something that has been said in this thread. First, nobody argued that people do evil acts because they are evil, but the exact opposite (it's because they do morally reprehensible act that they are evil).


If the only problem with drows was their alignment, then creating Lorendrow and Aevendrow (a) was an overreaction (b) missed the point -- since we still have Unudrow in the same place of drows. The only correct course of action if the problem was circumscribed to the statblock was letting everything in the setting the same and remove alignment. So Thayvian can be slaving society inflicting disasters on their neighbours but unaligned. It might be your position, but it's not what is discussed here.

Besides, it was attempted already by WotC. Lizardfolk society as described in the MM is strongly xenophobic, they kill anyone who enter their lands and eat them (and probably carve their bones into tools, since they are great craftsmen). They are not particularly agressive (when they are, it's because an evil demon duped them and their usual cultural respect for their shaman by sending one his worshipped as a shaman to inspire "uncharacteristic agression") and mostly want to stay in their homelands. Their alignment is Neutral. However, in the shaman thread, when the argument was made that shaman are associated with evil in 5e, I referred to the lizardfolk saying "well, in this case, they are neutral" and I was told that I was either a moron or arguing in bad faith as obviously, killing people and eating them was evil, irrespective of what their statblock says. Reading the MM, you'll find that lizardfolk are far less morally reprehensible than Menzoberranzan drows, yet, they are considered evil. Simply changing the alignment (or dropping it altogether) isn't enough in the current zeitgeist.

"Nobody cares about their motives anymore". I.e. it is pure subjectivity. Julius Groat (who?) is making my argument, not yours.

I don't think the argument you think is Remathilis's has been actually be made by him or anyone. It's like you're arguing against the idea that "being evil" is the cause of the behaviour of the Menzoberranzan drows, while everyone else is saying that it's the consequence of their behaviour. Paladins don't fall because there is "evil" on their character sheet beforehand. They fall because they commit and evil act and become evil.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

killing people and eating them was evil,

How do you define "people"?

 

[Remathilis]

"Nobody cares about their motives anymore". I.e. it is pure subjectivity. Julius Groat (who?) is making my argument, not yours. They are evil because people call them evil. They did not do what they did because they where evil. Can you honestly say that if you had been in Germany in the 1930s you would have opposed the Nazis? If you can, I call you a liar.

You're putting Descartes before the horse. I'm saying that their actions define them as evil, not that Evil makes them do their actions. Slavery is evil. Genocide is evil. I don't care your motivation for them, your actions have revealed that you are in fact evil. You are arguing for a consequentialist view where motivation justifies action.

Anyway, I'm done with this absurdity.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Slavery is evil. Genocide is evil. I don't care your motivation for them, your actions have revealed that you are in fact evil.

Capitalism is evil. Socialism is evil. Religion is evil. Atheism is evil.

For that to have any meaning you have to be able to demonstrate that something is objectively NOT evil.