D&D 5E New Drow cultures coming in Starlight Enclave, the Lorendrow and the Aevendrow

[Zardnaar]

Heh be funny if 6 is radically different, flops/underperforms and 7E is a return to "ye olde D&D".

Every odd numbered D&D after 1E has been marketed as a return to form.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Oh no, we're not talking about alignment. We can't have "evil" cultures. Slave holding cultures? No. Warmongering cultures? No. Expansionist cultures? Nope. Demon worshipping theocratic cultures?

This is a complete misrepresentation. You can still have cultures which support things we find abhorrent. You simply remove the convenient "Evil" label, which is really a synonym for "Other", not "Wrong".

This completely solves the problem of "are people who live in a dictatorship evil?". Because there IS NO EVIL. It doesn't make what they do right, it makes them people who act as they do for reasons too complex to simply be labelled "Good" or "Evil".

And to pick up on one of your examples, why do you think a "demon worshipping theocratic culture" is wrong? Shouldn't people be free to worship whoever they please? Or is your objection to theocracy in general? If so, what makes it any worse than democracy (i.e. government by the best liars)?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Oh no, we're not talking about alignment. We can't have "evil" cultures. Slave holding cultures?

Can't have clave holding cultures?

Have you met the Underdark? 'Slaver' is pretty much the only crayon in the freaking region's art box.

Not only that, but since mid-3e, 'liberated slave' is also a near-prerequisite for being a player race.

How can you possibly say slaver-states 'aren't allowed' when it's basically the majority economic system of the default setting?

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

The new Critical Role setting book, Tal'Dorei Reborn, is being published by their own company, Darrington Press.

Tal'Dorei has goblins suffering a Curse of Strife by which Bane speaks in their minds and prod them toward Neutral Evil, while Orcs are cursed by Gruumsh and are all merciless killers to the point that people don't even believe in legends about good orcs. I am not sure customers nowadays would tolerate entertainment of this nature. Critical Role success was in 2017, things were different back then. Given the changes initiated by WotC, I don't see them going this way.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Tal'Dorei has goblins suffering a Curse of Strife by which Bane speaks in their minds and prod them toward Neutral Evil, while Orcs are cursed by Gruumsh and are all merciless killer to the point that people don't even believe in legends about good orcs. I am not sure people nowadays would tolerate entertainment of this nature.

The former is still true as of Explorer's Guide to Wildemount (though means for goblins to either have never been affected by the Curse of Strife or to be freed from it are presented), but in that book the latter is retconned as being false, but still believed by many (orc and otherwise).

Here's a few excerpts from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount

For long years, orcs were feared as mindless abominations, drawn to slaughter like moths to a flame. Stories tell of how the blood of the Ruiner flows in the veins of all orcs, driving them to commit acts of terrible violence and anger.

Orcs and half-orcs do feel a certain pull toward violence and anger. But the simple truth is that there is no curse of ruin. No supernatural power drives orcs to kill. Rather, they are simply victims of the same selfish, violent impulses that corrupt all mortal beings.

Orcs are now renowned as some of the Dwendalian Empire's most accomplished soldiers, though many folk still fear the ancient legends of the curse of ruin. Half-orcs are proud of their heritage, though many are wary of the wrathful curse that supposedly drives them to violence. Other half-orcs reject the idea that they are destined for violence, and rely on faith, meditation, and friendship to live peaceful lives.

The city of Othe has a significant half-orc population. The city has long attracted orcs and half-orcs who believe that the curse of ruin has caused them to lash out at those they love.

Most orcs in Xhorhas have human or drow blood. In the culture of the Xhorhasian nomads, the union of orcs and goblinkin is strictly taboo, for the clans' elders fear the uncontrolled madness of a soul afflicted by both Gruumsh's curse of ruin and Bane's curse of strife.

The last one is particularly interesting, as the book clearly states that the Curse of Ruin does not exist, while the Curse of Strife does (though goblinkin born within the proximity of a Luxon Beacon are never affected by it, and the Vinewreathed Enclave are goblinkin worshipers of the goddess of nature who make it their mission to free goblins from the Curse of Strife). The recently concluded Exandria Unlimited also included a new locale that had peaceful goblin citizens, though a large society of goblinkin who follow Bane live to the south of them.

One of the authors of Tal'Dorei Reborn, James Haeck, has also intimated that the upcoming book will do a lot to change how orcs and goblins are described.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

All that said, one of the heroes of first season of Critical Role, Scanlan Shorthalt, had "goblins killed my family" as part of his background. In the very first episode of the show Scanlan expresses multiple times that he hates goblins. Late in the first episode, even after Matt Mercer explains that the goblins the party are facing seem to be terrified and trying to flee from something else, Scanlan tells fellow party member Grog to "kill them anyway." In the second campaign the same player, Sam Riegal, plays a goblin named Nott, but she is eventually revealed to have once been a halfling who was drowned by murderous goblins while her family escaped, reincarnated by a hag as a goblin herself to serve the goblin tribe as a torturer's assistant.

So the same player had his first character's background as "my family was killed by evil goblins", and the second character's background as "I was killed by evil goblins while saving my family, was reincarnated as one, and was forced to do evil things in their tribe".

 

[Remathilis]

This is a complete misrepresentation. You can still have cultures which support things we find abhorrent. You simply remove the convenient "Evil" label, which is really a synonym for "Other", not "Wrong".

This completely solves the problem of "are people who live in a dictatorship evil?". Because there IS NO EVIL. It doesn't make what they do right, it makes them people who act as they do for reasons too complex to simply be labelled "Good" or "Evil".

And to pick up on one of your examples, why do you think a "demon worshipping theocratic culture" is wrong? Shouldn't people be free to worship whoever they please? Or is your objection to theocracy in general? If so, what makes it any worse than democracy (i.e. government by the best liars)?

No, evil is a synonym for evil. As in "this culture engages or condones one or more things that most people consider abhorrent. What people here apparently no longer accept is that a large group of people would engage in such actions willingly, which to me flies in the face of plenty of historical evidence. How many people accepted Nazism even if they weren't part of the party? How many joined the KKK or picnicked to watch lynchings? How many today defend police brutality? How many have joined cults and allowed the abuse done by thier leader?

To go to the example you picked out: the demon worshipping theocratic culture is bad because THEY WORSHIP DEMONS. This isn't modern Church of Satan which is a pisstake at other religions, they are active in serving the literal embodiment of evil and spreading misery and destruction. Is that not evil, or are we back to "demons aren't evil either" territory?

The point of fantasy is explore things that couldn't happen. Maybe a culture in reality can't be made of a majority of demon worshipping slavers, but reality doesn't allow a dragon to fly and breathe fire either. And as a game, a certain level of abstraction is needed keep the hundreds of sentient beings separate. I don't like the fact you can't have a Mordor, a Thay, a Galactic Empire, a Menzoberranzan or other "this is a bad place" locations. I guess the villagers of Barovia are going to start Occupy Castle Ravenloft soon.

I was willing to accept the "not all drow are evil" , but I'm not accepting the "actually, very few drow are evil" either. At that point, dump the drow entirely and just allow black/grey/purple as a standard elf skin color choice and be done with it.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

To go to the example you picked out: the demon worshipping theocratic culture is bad because THEY WORSHIP DEMONS. This isn't modern Church of Satan which is a pisstake at other religions, they are active in serving the literal embodiment of evil and spreading misery and destruction. Is that not evil, or are we back to "demons aren't evil either" territory?

In the real world, many religions were demonized by Christians as being the work of demons. The reason that devils in D&D are often horned and sometimes have goat-like legs is itself due to the demonization of the goat-like god Pan. This demonization of non-Christian religions in our history is probably a reason why some people find it uncomfortable in fantasy, even if in D&D and other games and media actual, for real demons and evil gods that command atrocities exist.

That said, at least one of these demonized religions also commonly practiced human sacrifice to appease their gods, believing these sacrifices were necessary to preserve the world itself (though the scale of this practice and who the sacrificial victims were seems to be still contested). To be fair, the people demonizing this religion also believed in one in which the chief deity was said to have previously both personally committed and commanded of its followers genocide, as well as to reject foreign cultural influences as evil, which led to centuries of evil acts by its followers in the form of holy wars, inquisitions, forced conversion, etc. Of course, these guys would argue that what they were doing was necessary to keep people from being tricked by evil forces into damnation.

 

[Remathilis]

In the real world, many religions were demonized by Christians as being the work of demons. The reason that devils in D&D are often horned and sometimes have goat-like legs is itself due to the demonization of the goat-like god Pan. This demonization of non-Christian religions in our history is probably a reason why some people find it uncomfortable in fantasy, even if in D&D and other games and media actual, for real demons and evil gods that command atrocities exist.

So now we're heading back to 2e with tanar'ri and baatezu? Or maybe back to BECMI where they're are no outer-planar beings at all?

This has veered wildly from the topic of new Drow cultures, so I'll concede that drow can now longer be evil and demons are misunderstood and go upon my day.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

So now we're heading back to 2e with tanar'ri and baatezu? Or maybe back to BECMI where they're are no outer-planar beings at all?

I don't believe I've seen many people advocating for that, so no.

My point is more along the lines that once two-dimensional evil is considered unacceptable for fantasy one is led towards the real world's many complicated and confusing shades of grey, where many people can do evil things in large scale for reasons they believe to be good due to religious or philosophical reasons. I'm not necessarily opposed to this and enjoy using some shades of gray (for example, would a devil-worshiping Lawful Evil civilization in the Underdark that fights hordes of demons and aberrations be for the greater good?), but it does make things more complicated for everyone.