New Fighting Style: Swift Striker

[Hawk Diesel]

Like the goal of boosting the d4 weapons. Not sure about the extra attack though. What about this?

Precise striker - You can use small weapons to their maximum effect. When wielding d4 weapons you always do the maximum damage possible with them when you hit.

So at first level
Dagger + shield - 7 damage (11 on crit) +2ac
2 daggers - 11 damage (if both hit)
Sword main hand dagger off hand - 11.5 damage (if both hit)

So I do fighter capstone differently, based on the fighting style. That is the capstone for this fighting style.

Besides, I think the extra attack is more interesting personally than max damage.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

One concern I have is the saying that "weapon damage dice don't kill monsters, bonuses do". (Okay, that saying was from AD&D 2ed, and probably just one DM, but still.)

The base case works fine. But can this be abused?

A couple of things I can see:

A single level fighter dip can double a rogue's chances to land their sneak attack without taking up a second hand or using a bonus action (which has a good amount of competition for the rogue). And it's higher expected damage than TWF since the second one gets that ability score added to damage, even though is is superior to it except for weapon die size, and since TWF is restricted to light it's not far behind it.

A different way is if you start piling on bonuses, does it exceed? Barbarian rage bonus damage, a second fighting style to take dueling as well, just getting an extra use per round of a magic weapon. Something like the Holy Weapon spell from XGtE, or Hex / Hunter's Mark?

Hmm a Ranger 4/Fighter 1 with Swift Striker, Dueling Style, and Hunter's mark gets two attacks for d4+(STR|DEX)+2+d6 = average 8+S|D per hit, or 16 if all hit. A fighter 5 with traditional Dueling style would have 2 attacks with d8+(STR|DEX)+2 = average 6.5 per hit or 13 if all hit. But then at the next level the Swift Striker, which is already doing more damage, would get a third attack and blow other out of the water. (This doesn't require multiclassing, the Champion gains a 2nd fighting style natural, though it comes online later.)

This looks like those looking to optimize can squeeze a lot more out of it than an average users. That's might be something fine for a particular table though.

Personally, I don't mind this so much. I know at my tables, people will still tend to gravitate to the bigger weapons, but this may give them some reason to explore different kinds of melee characters.

Also I have a feat that grants a fighting style, to limit dips.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Considering that each weapon is limited to a d4 damage, I don't think that is sufficient when comparing to a d8 weapon with a +2 and shield or a main hand d8 and an off hand d6 weapon.

So, if you have a d8 weapon&shield, and an extra +2 from dueling style, and, say, a 14 stat, you're doing d8 (4.5) + 2 + 2 with the one and d4 (2.5) + 2 , /twice/ with the other. Sounds comparable. Of course, if you can cheese up a second style, you can combine them.

Obviously it's less damage than TWF, since you are gaining the shield benefit. But, if it doesn't use a bonus action, you can combine it with TWF (you don't even need the TWF style), which you also can't do with the +2 from dueling style (even if you do have both), so d4 + 2 x2 +d4, or (d4 + 2)x3 if you have both styles. With a modest stat bonus, it seems like it keeps up, the more damage bonuses you can come up with...


... now, it doesn't combine with the Duel Wielder Feat, and these little weapons are maybe still out in the cold in that sense - but they've a lot of company with everything else that can't compete with GWM/SS...

 

[Hawk Diesel]

So, if you have a d8 weapon& shield, and an extra +2 from dueling style, and, say, a 14 stat, you're doing d8 (4.5) + 2 + 2 with the one and d4 (2.5) + 2 , /twice/ with the other. Sounds comparable. Of course, if you can cheese up a second style, you can combine them.

Obviously it's less damage than TWF, since you are gaining the shield benefit. But, if it doesn't use a bonus action, you can combine it with TWF, which you also can't do with the +2 from dueling style, so d4 + 2 x3, or 13.5 average damage, with a very modest bonus of a 14 stat. The more damage bonuses you can come up with...

The math is certainly useful in white room balance predictions. And sure, there are potentials for abuse. But I also think that outside those abuseable situations, the option creates a new kind of melee fighter that can be fun to play. Now, will they outshine the other players? Or will other players feel upstaged? I'm not sure, but my gut feeling is that it's close enough to be comparable and unlikely to cause disruption at the table.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I also think that outside those abuseable situations, the option creates a new kind of melee fighter that can be fun to play. Now, will they outshine the other players? Or will other players feel upstaged? I'm not sure, but my gut feeling is that it's close enough to be comparable and unlikely to cause disruption at the table.

I wouldn't think anyone would feel too upstaged by someone poking away with daggers, however quickly he may poke, even if he does eke out a little more DPR.

But, really, it's not that new, it's still an extra attack for using a whimpier weapon, much like TWFing. Potentially better in some ways, though with no upgrade path of it's own, like Duel Wielder. And, if it doesn't need a bonus action, combining it with even basic TWF should be pretty attractive.

 

[TwoSix]

The math is certainly useful in white room balance predictions. And sure, there are potentials for abuse. But I also think that outside those abuseable situations, the option creates a new kind of melee fighter that can be fun to play. Now, will they outshine the other players? Or will other players feel upstaged? I'm not sure, but my gut feeling is that it's close enough to be comparable and unlikely to cause disruption at the table.

It doesn't make GWM or SS any better, so ultimately you don't have to sweat it much.

But, really, it's not that new, it's still an extra attack for using a whimpier weapon, much like TWFing. Potentially better in some ways, though with no upgrade path of it's own, like Duel Wielder. And, if it doesn't need a bonus action, combining it with even basic TWF should be pretty attractive.

Honestly, I think you could combine this style with the TWF style with relatively little consequence.

 

[Quartz]

Swift Striker
You can make one additional attack whenever you take the Attack action. You gain this benefit while wielding only the following weapons: Club, Dagger, Dart, Light Hammer, Sickle, Sling, or Whip.

The whip and sling seems out of place there but I'd change it so that the extra attack is a Bonus Action, like TWF.

So

Swift Striker
Whenever you take the Attack action with a weapon with the Light quality, you may make one extra attack as a Bonus Action.

However, I'm wondering how Sharpshooter affects this style.

 

[Satyrn]

I'm gonna argue against making the extra attack a bonus action.

I like that after taking this style, I'd still have a meaningful choice between using a shield or a second dagger.

 

[Quartz]

I'm gonna argue against making the extra attack a bonus action.

Why? It's the mechanism that the TWF style and the Shield Master and Polearm Master feats use. In fact, it's the standard mechanism for doing something extra. I've thought further and this could be abused with Sharpshooter. Are you comfortable with a first level character doing 3d4+12+30 HP damage in a round? (Assuming an 18 stat.) That's one attack with the weapon, the second attack thanks to the style, and a third from a Bonus Action or Reaction from somewhere, each with the stat and Sharpshooter damage bonuses. Compare this with a bow and the Archery style and the Sharpshooter feat. The light weapon with this style wins hands down.

 

[Satyrn]

My second sentence answers your question, "why?" My second sentence was my entire argument.


To answer your other question: Your scenario with Sharpshooter looks a little problematic (and rather reinforces zardnaar's position that the feat is broken), and if it concerns Hawk Diesel, I think a decent solution would be to reword Swift Strike to give an extra melee attack, only . . . which removes the sling from the feat, though. That's a downside.