NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[GQuail]

Hey all!

Regarding these continual delays (to which I humbly apologise) I have been thinking that in future (and possibly the immediate future), I'll probably revise my overall strategy to make much smaller documents (pdfs). Then three or four of those can be grouped together for the print versions.

For instance:

Angels pdf (Seven from EB#1, Metatron, 3 new (epic) Minion angels and whatever other stuff I can outline, possibly a full Koph Nia team etc.)

Flesh & Blood pdf (Epic Vampires*, epic wights (minions), Epic Mummies, epic ghosts)

*Nosferatu, Strigoi, Varcolac and Erebus himself for instance.

Daemon pdf (Four Horsemen and their minions, their steeds and so forth)

Abomination (and Entity) pdf etc.

So maybe about 16-32 pages per pdf (average 24 lets say). Try and keep it as short and compact as possible while still doing the topic justice. There could be a dragon pack, golem pack and so forth.

What do you think (beyond the idea that getting anything out sooner will be a good idea - that much is obvious)?

The only flaw I can see at this point is that each would probably need its own painted cover...although I suppose I could do one big cover (for the print version) and then use individual sections (eachj quarter?) of that for the pdf covers...? Maybe?

Here's the thoughts of a long-gone-quiet-but-recently-been-reading-Ascension-again customer:

1. Lots of smaller products could mean less of a lag time between products, and are easier on the eyes anyway. (And the printer: if I'm never going to use, say, epic Angels, I don't need to print them out.) I would be in favour of this general idea.

2. Prainted covers for each individual book is insanity: it seems to me a big reason behind some of your delays is you trying to juggle your art and writing duties, and one taking up time when the other is what customers are craving. Simple text covers per section and a painted cover for the "Absolut" edition or whatever would suffice.

3. I can't stress this next bit enough: as much 3.5 stuff needs to keep coming as possible. I'm as interested in 4th Ed as you are, but if you end up shifting fully to 4th Edition production with a mighty two books for 3rd Ed, then I'm gonna end up feeling a bit like my money was wasted: I bought into the start of a complete series of books, and if they don't materialise..... well, it would suck.

4. When you first said Ascension was gonna be late, you promised updates every 10 days IIRC: and specifically said "these will be even if they're tiny updates". A year on that promise has sorta slumped to the background, with you oft saying "there's not enough done for a full update: I'll do one in the next X days". I appreciate that you've had plenty of life changes over the past year (I know I have!) including getting your current job, but it's frustrating when something you told us would be a mighty month or two late has dragged on for over a year: and when progress has gotten so thin on the ground that I check this thread not once a day or even once a week, but more like once a month. So, basically, even if it's only tiny progress, I think you need to keep giving people something: and if that means that on an agreed update day you've changed a mighty three paragraphs, then I think you should still update that.

5. This almost goes without saying, but: your deadline skills are truly, truly terrible ;-) and any product you release is going to be hampered if you can't recover from Ascension's woes with 100% "it's done" product. I don't know a way to account for this, really: I'm sure you mean every deadline you give, and probably try to account for a certain factor of error in them, but it still seems to never work. I mean, seriously, it's at this stage impossible to imagine that there was any chance that Ascension could have been released on the day you agreed, even art-less : and in a way, the large list of stuff you've typed on this message board or hand-written quantifying immortality is actually more of a hindrance than a benefit, because it might look like it exists to you but to your more casual fans it's basically ethereal. All I can say, I guess, is that you really need more than a hunch when you say "X Book is coming out in July 2008", and you should possibly spend way more time typing before you make any of those kinds of promises.

That all sounds a bit negative, doesn't it? Oh well. My three and a half year game is coming up to epic levels, and I've got an inkling to kick some people up to low immortal status. (Possibly not as "gods" but as things like Fey Lords, Saints, Psions who evolve their minds a step above the rest of he world, etd) So finally my interest in the Immortals Handbook goes from beyond purely a reading material to an actual game book - ergo, I may be a little snappier because I would really prefer to have more such game books actually materialise before I trigger my campaign's end phase and move onto something else.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I'll respoond to GQuail's post here but consider this a generic reply to this recent questioning, although to answer Pssthpok, the art is really tough to make competent. By that I mean, I am not drawing very often (because I am either brainstorming/designing, researching, writing, typing, or even working nightshift), so I can't just sit down and draw a picture. Or rather, I can, but its just not going to be up to scratch. A lot of planning and research goes into every illustration just so I don't embarass myself. If I was drawing all the time I am sure I would be faster.

Here's the thoughts of a long-gone-quiet-but-recently-been-reading-Ascension-again customer:

1. Lots of smaller products could mean less of a lag time between products, and are easier on the eyes anyway. (And the printer: if I'm never going to use, say, epic Angels, I don't need to print them out.) I would be in favour of this general idea.

Also of note is that elements of the Bestiary volume #1 would be recycled (for 4E and possibly 3.5*) so that might cut time down again. Its unknown how less complex 4E will make monster design.

*Just wondering if an Angels pdf (for instance) would be something people would want to see in 3.5 given half of it is already in the Bestiary. The missing angels would be a non-epic Far Realm angel, Metatron, angelic assassins (minions), angelic standard bearers (minions) and angelic musicians (again minions). There is also the possibility of a full Koph Nia team description and some extra material on angels in general. I may also redo the Solar and Planetars. So its about 50% old and 50% new.

2. Prainted covers for each individual book is insanity: it seems to me a big reason behind some of your delays is you trying to juggle your art and writing duties, and one taking up time when the other is what customers are craving. Simple text covers per section and a painted cover for the "Absolut" edition or whatever would suffice.

I agree. I think the best solution is to do one full page interior art (black and white) and then use that (again) for the cover (with the logos/titles in colour). A bit like the Black and White early cover that was initially shown for the new 4E Races & Classes book.

3. I can't stress this next bit enough: as much 3.5 stuff needs to keep coming as possible. I'm as interested in 4th Ed as you are, but if you end up shifting fully to 4th Edition production with a mighty two books for 3rd Ed, then I'm gonna end up feeling a bit like my money was wasted: I bought into the start of a complete series of books, and if they don't materialise..... well, it would suck.

Again agreed, but I may start to compartmentalise things for 3.5 just to get them out quicker (not just monsters).

I may also release Gods & Monsters in a different way. For instance, instead of adding 45 new monsters I could do maybe 5-10 Epic Greek monsters, 5-10 Epic Norse Monsters and so on and so forth. Just something really quick (by my standards) and cheap. Then when I have enough such pdfs combine them into a book.

As for 4E and 3.5E I'd like to do both, but I may take on some help with either me doing one and then someone else converting it for a slice of the profits.

4. When you first said Ascension was gonna be late, you promised updates every 10 days IIRC: and specifically said "these will be even if they're tiny updates". A year on that promise has sorta slumped to the background, with you oft saying "there's not enough done for a full update: I'll do one in the next X days". I appreciate that you've had plenty of life changes over the past year (I know I have!) including getting your current job, but it's frustrating when something you told us would be a mighty month or two late has dragged on for over a year: and when progress has gotten so thin on the ground that I check this thread not once a day or even once a week, but more like once a month. So, basically, even if it's only tiny progress, I think you need to keep giving people something: and if that means that on an agreed update day you've changed a mighty three paragraphs, then I think you should still update that.

Yes that was unforgivable, however, saying there wasn't enough for an update has been true (especially over the past 6 months of starting the job - the first three months, when I was on full time were a nightmare. Its only been since dropping down to part time that I can really make a stab at things again. Those painted covers are still 2-3 weeks of full work (so add in the fact that I still work part time and that almost doubles production time).

After Xmas I do have a lot of time off coming up over the next 3-4 months so I should be able to make inroads into this.

5. This almost goes without saying, but: your deadline skills are truly, truly terrible ;-) and any product you release is going to be hampered if you can't recover from Ascension's woes with 100% "it's done" product. I don't know a way to account for this, really: I'm sure you mean every deadline you give, and probably try to account for a certain factor of error in them, but it still seems to never work. I mean, seriously, it's at this stage impossible to imagine that there was any chance that Ascension could have been released on the day you agreed, even art-less : and in a way, the large list of stuff you've typed on this message board or hand-written quantifying immortality is actually more of a hindrance than a benefit, because it might look like it exists to you but to your more casual fans it's basically ethereal. All I can say, I guess, is that you really need more than a hunch when you say "X Book is coming out in July 2008", and you should possibly spend way more time typing before you make any of those kinds of promises.

I'm not going to give anymore deadlines. In future I'll only say whats coming next, not when. At least until such time as I can start releasing things with some sort of regularity.

That all sounds a bit negative, doesn't it? Oh well.

Understandable though.

My three and a half year game is coming up to epic levels, and I've got an inkling to kick some people up to low immortal status. (Possibly not as "gods" but as things like Fey Lords, Saints, Psions who evolve their minds a step above the rest of he world, etd) So finally my interest in the Immortals Handbook goes from beyond purely a reading material to an actual game book - ergo, I may be a little snappier because I would really prefer to have more such game books actually materialise before I trigger my campaign's end phase and move onto something else.

Do you have the Ascension pdf? If so the text won't change massively from 2.8 to the finished book.

 

[dante58701]

I want to see more Epic Undead, we don't have enough at all.

 

[jedrious]

Do you have the Ascension pdf? If so the text won't change massively from 2.8 to the finished book.

this concerns me because we have pointed out SEVERAL glaring text errors that need to be fixed

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy mate!

this concerns me because we have pointed out SEVERAL glaring text errors that need to be fixed

Apart from the Table discrepancy* and the Portfolio realm sections, what glaring errors are still present?

*Which I assume is to do with prereqs - all of which I don't think I can fit on the tables without making them ridiculous.

 

[WarDragon]

I'd rather they be ridiculous and correct, but that's just me...

 

[jedrious]

Howdy mate!



Apart from the Table discrepancy* and the Portfolio realm sections, what glaring errors are still present?

*Which I assume is to do with prereqs - all of which I don't think I can fit on the tables without making them ridiculous.

The tables need one of three things done: either remove the prerequisites section of the tables altogether, add in all the prerequisites, or remove the table

The Science Portfolio either needs to be removed or replaced by one that actually represents Psionics(several people on here know about Psionics and can write it up without too much inconvenience)

The Secrets Portfolio is still the only portfolio with a weakness added on after Disciple, also the Greater Deity power of Regeneration has absolutely no game effect since you have to have regeneration in the round you are damaged for regeneration to affect you, if you still want the "if you were not damaged this round" caveat change to fast healing

The Weakness section for Protfolios still does not specify that you cannot take divine abilities to negate a weakness

Needs to be clearly stated whether you intend Outsiders to use just the Spiritual Growth section for Divine Rank, just the Paralelled section of the Templates or Both

The Resonance Section could use another page explaining interaction with Apertures (sensing, protecting, moving, etc.)

Alter Reality and Cosmic Firmament need to be syncronized with their various versions

A paragraph or two in the Artifacts section explaining how Immortals coexist in a reality with non-immortal Epic characters and their epic items

The Divine Ability Uncanny Dodge needs its name changed as there's a class ability of the same name

The epic Feats Improved Toughness and Weapon Mastery need to be changed due to non-epic feats existing with the same name and extremely similar abilities(in Complete Warrior and PHB2)

The Combat Mastery epic feat is not needed since there is a non-epic feat that does the same thing (Improved Combat Expertise in Complete Warrior)

The Armor Masteries need clarification as to whether they affect class abilities that are dependant upon not wearing armor (a Monk with Heavy Armor Mastery for example)

The Eighth and Nineth Sense abilities need clarification as to what they actually do as oppossed to infering that you don't exist yet

Bane [Effect] needs clarification as to whether it must be taken for each creature type, if it applys to all of your favored enemies, or if it simply applys to everyone

Spiritual Ancestry gives the traits of a variety of different beings however two of them have issues: Brood Traits aren't listed anywhere, and the Chaotic Good traits should be Eladrin and not fey since all of the other alignments are outsider Subspecies

Dimentional Ancestry has the possibility of giving Inevitable Traits, however, Inevitable traits are "Fast Healing: An Inevitable heals a certain amount of damage each round (Specified in each variety's description) as long as it has at least 1 hit point. However, damage dealt by chaotic weapons heals at the normal rate." leaving a big question as to how much fast healing(be it a formula based upon HD or Divine Rank)

Currently Diseased and Poisonous [Effect] have no effect upon Immortal v. Immortal changing them to (SU) instead of (Ex) would fix this

Currently the Divine Ability Undeath specifies that you lose your Con score however the Erstatz Divine Ability does not

Currently the Fertility Portfolio has a severe penalty to it once it reaches Demi-Deity status, namely every day they lose a significant chunk of quintessence or populate reality with extremely harmful abominations, consider changing the rejuvenation abilities received at demi-deity status with an ability that reduces the quintessence needed to have a child

Divine Sorcery and Divine Wizardry do exactly the same thing, consider revising to

Divine Wizardry
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 40 Ranks
Benefit: Double your number of Spell Slots for each level.

Divine Sorcery
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 40 Ranks
Benefit: Double your number of Spells Known for each level.

The Asport Divine Ability needs a range listed, and perhaps a slinging scale for the DC similar to what the Scrying spell has

The Great Breath Divine Ability infers that Deities can create outsiders, however, no rules for such creation are listed

The Learned [Spell, Ability, Weapon, Opponnent] Immunity line of abilities do not specify if you can lower the effect for beneficial effects such as healing or buffing abilities

Perfect Weapon Focus needs clarification on the BAB progression for Epic Prestige Classes

In multiple places you have unfinished sentences

There's more but I have to get ready for Christmas Dinner

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

The problem with including all the prerequisites in a feat table is that it makes it cluttered. WotC might have set precedent by doing so in all their books; that doesn't make it the best way. For example, if you wanted to write up Ultimate Weapon Specialization's Prerequisites:
they are [Sblock]BAB +130, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Perfect Weapon Focus, Unearthly Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Perfect Weapon Specialization, Unearthly Weapon Specialization[/Sblock]
Which would look something like this on the table:
[Sblock]BAB +130, Weapon Focus, Greater
Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon
Focus, Perfect Weapon Focus,
Unearthly Weapon Focus,
Weapon Specialization, Greater
Weapon Specialization, Perfect
Weapon Specialization, Unearthly
Weapon Specialization[/Sblock]
Which means the Cosmic, Transient and Omnific tables will more than double in length, since many of them require 3 or more feats or abilities.

It is alot easier if you just list the Stat or BAB requirements and the highest feat in any chain required. IE Only list it as 'BAB +130, Unearthly Weapon Focus, Unearthly Weapon Specialization' Since they include the other feats in their own requirements.
(This is also how I record feats for monster/npc stat blocks for my own use, since it saves loads of typing to just say they have 'Ultimate Weapon Specialization', Rather than list 9-10 other feats)

 

[dante58701]

The Science Portfolio either needs to be removed or replaced by one that actually represents Psionics(several people on here know about Psionics and can write it up without too much inconvenience)

I've been on him for this for for a while now. I don't think he really get's psionics, and he's still using those non-existent spell-like abilities.

Further, he is still confusing magic and psionics. In one sentence he treats them as though they are completely different from one another, in yet another, he treats them as though they are identical to one another.

In short...the Science portfolio really blows...and that's putting it politely.

The rest of the portfolios are great though. My only real problem with ascension at this point is that really lame lame lame Science portfolio.

As a general rule, if you don't know anything about psionics...it's best not to mangle them.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll have all those fixed (with the exception of the prereqs on the tables, which as Ltheb notes, would be too space inducing) for the next update.