NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[mercucio]

Intersting point, LS, but NO!!! No duct-taping!! If the system keeps proving to be inaccurate, go back to the root of the problem and see what's going on...

...ah, there we are. Virtual Size Categories. Ditch that, and damage falls back into a safer place, you won't need hit point multipliers except for the Godly Realm thing (x2 while at home is a good rule), and then you won't need to keep boosting the power everywhere else to keep up with the hit points (which, incidentally, have only been increased because VSCs allow such high damage outputs).

Make VSCs an optional variant, scrap them in official builds, and stop all the duct-taping!

Amen. I personally require players to take an ECL adjustment when taking VSCs.

 

[dante58701]

No way...virtual size categories are the coolest. Though they should come with Challenge Rating and Effective Level adjustments.

 

[Pssthpok]

Well, they create waves... so you either continually duct-tape on more rules to compensate (and end up with a very messy end product) or you scrap them, reducing them to optional variants with a clause about how they complicate damage versus hit points at the Sidereal+ level.

 

[historian]

CR 1000? Isn't that a bit low?

Particularly in light of the CR*2 = EL+6 errata.

I've done my first bit of playtesting post-portfolios and I am positively AWED at how powerful Eternals are.

I made an amateur's attempt at statting the artifact-less Living Tribunal (Triad) with the Law, Charity, and Revenge portfolios and, absent a bigger Time Lord nothing touches "him." Try Dead Zone, Evil Eye, Omega Mastery, Alpha and Akashic Aura in one round and you'll see what I mean.

I'm with Pssthpok on no bolt-ons, despite some good ideas. If anything, there could be too much to work with. I'd hate to see all of this house-ruled to death, no puns, irony, or sycophantism intended.

BTW, hello U_K!

 

[Edheldur]

I'm with Pssthpok on no bolt-ons, despite some good ideas. If anything, there could be too much to work with. I'd hate to see all of this house-ruled to death, no puns, irony, or sycophantism intended.

For what it's worth, I'm also of the same opinion.

 

[Phantom Llama]

Well, the easiest fix is simply to count divine bonuses as *non-natural* bonuses to strength, so they don't count towards VSCs. (And neither would Legendary Strength, Total Strength, Strength-Domain-esque powers, or anything of the sorts. Great Strength Epic feat would be fine though)

This, although I might let Legendary Strength apply depending on how the numbers work out. It's the Cosmic version of Great Strength so the same principles should apply in theory.

VSCs are rather cool*, but introducing an exponentially scaling mechanic into the linear D&D system is going to break it once we head out of the area where the exponent is comparable to the straight line. The key is to keep that area as far away as possible, and this means limiting the bonuses that apply for the purpose of calculating VSCs. Trying to raise the rest of the game to fix it is trying to twist linear mechanics into an exponential progression, which leads to the horrible mess of duct tape that is starting to emerge right now.

It's worth noting at this juncture that the reasoning given in the Bestiary Vol. 1 for the existence of Virtal Size Categories is in fact completely false. There's no physical principle dictating that you must have X mass to exert Y force in the real world, let alone in fantasy. It applies even less to strength resulting from divine power or borrowing the strength of others.

*In some cases. In other cases, like the minimum size rules for sidereals, they require ignoring to prevent perfectly good characters getting mutilated by unnecessary and arbitrary restrictions.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb mate!

CR 1000? Isn't that a bit low? Time Lords are ECL 2000... Unless they are ment to be used in the same manner Piranha ghouls are. (Step 1: Swarm. Step 2: Paralize. Step 3: Eat. Step 4: Profit)

Thats a proprietry CR - I don't have the thing finished yet.

Though I think the write ups for all the Greater-God+ Monsters will be interesting. (Even if there are only a few) The universe can never have too many "horrors from beyond time."

I don't like to do too many of those since they see less use overall, but I am sure I will have one or three.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Intersting point, LS, but NO!!! No duct-taping!! If the system keeps proving to be inaccurate, go back to the root of the problem and see what's going on...

...ah, there we are. Virtual Size Categories. Ditch that, and damage falls back into a safer place, you won't need hit point multipliers except for the Godly Realm thing (x2 while at home is a good rule), and then you won't need to keep boosting the power everywhere else to keep up with the hit points (which, incidentally, have only been increased because VSCs allow such high damage outputs).

Make VSCs an optional variant, scrap them in official builds, and stop all the duct-taping!

Neutronium Golem Slam: 1d8+250 +1d8 fire...doesn't really pack the same punch does it.

In fact if you don't use VSCs then damage becomes next to irrelevant in immortal games, because the amount of damage will consistently drop further and further compared to hit point totals. So you'll end up with a situation where combat between two immortals will take 24 hours to play out. Which might sound about right from a story perspective (or DBZ perspective), but its going to be a nightmare for anyone interested in running an actual immortal campaign.

With regards time lords (which is where the real problem starts) you are basically asking the impossible if you are looking for balance - its as simple as that. There are simply too many variables and options. If I give every time lord the same hit points, ability scores and divine abilities, then I can make them balanced, but wheres the fun in that - far too sterile.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb mate!

With the recent increase in Timelord (and possibly the other ultra-dimensional beings') hit points, this seems to render some of the [Effects] useless.

Reasoning: By multiplying the deities hit points, you are essentially cutting the effectiveness of Effects by the same amount. Not that game balance matters to Timelords, but this could also apply to Elder ones and up, which are imminently playable to some degree.

Anti-matter effect now deals less damage than poisonous effect to a Timelord. Ultima effect it about as useful as dealing 20 damage/turn when used by timelords on timelords. Transcendant effect might be useful, but probably will do less than a scratch. Heck, Gravitic Effect becomes MORE powerful now. (About 1000x more effective on timelords!)
In order to deal any appreciable damage to beings with such high hit point totals, you would need to apply the Telluric, Vengeful, Quantum, and Talismanic Effect multipliers to your effects just so the opponent doesn't laugh as hard while they punch you to death.
Of all the Transient Effects, only Omega Effect and Astro Effect even matter in many cases. Any deity taking Ultima, Antimatter, or Transcendent effects is wastering their time. (Unless they want to blow 36 divine slots on a power useable only on mooks)

Solution: Perhaps a Transcendent Effect multiplier that just flat out multiplies the hit dice of the deity for the purposes of [Effects]. (perhaps by 10?)

I fail to see how all these abilities have just fallen apart given all I have done is multiply old one hit points by x2 and first one hit points by x8...and this is assuming I let those multipliers stand.

None of the effect abilities should be one hit kills on your peers, even with the multipliers like Telluric effect. If they were one hit certain kills then they would be broken.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I've done my first bit of playtesting post-portfolios and I am positively AWED at how powerful Eternals are.

I made an amateur's attempt at statting the artifact-less Living Tribunal (Triad) with the Law, Charity, and Revenge portfolios and, absent a bigger Time Lord nothing touches "him." Try Dead Zone, Evil Eye, Omega Mastery, Alpha and Akashic Aura in one round and you'll see what I mean.

There are some crazy builds out there. If anyone is serious about keeping a tight rein on things I suggest you play up to about Greater God/Elder One and use NPCs up to about First One level power.

Third Edition really struggles to cope with the power of Eternals.

I'm with Pssthpok on no bolt-ons, despite some good ideas. If anything, there could be too much to work with. I'd hate to see all of this house-ruled to death, no puns, irony, or sycophantism intended.

I think thats a valid concern you could have for the whole book. I am constantly looking for ways to simplify things. I actually think that the divine abilities should be done as 'ability trees' to help people know what abilities to choose...I sort of have a halfway measure with regards those tables at the end of each ability section.

BTW, hello U_K!

Hey historian matey.

P.S. I haven't gotten ahold of Simon yet (he hasn't popped up on msn over the past few days) but I will definately email him tonight.