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NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

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mercucio

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Hey WarDragon mate! :)

Is the speed tripling from a divine template, or Celerity, applied before or after the Fast Movement class feature?

Apply them in the order you gain them.
Sorry Krusty, as a solution that doesn't wash. You can gain fast movement before and after acquiring a divine template or divine ability. There needs to be a single way of determining how the doubling/tripling/x multiplication working when dealing with movement speed bonuses.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey mercucio dude! :)

mercucio said:
Sorry Krusty, as a solution that doesn't wash. You can gain fast movement before and after acquiring a divine template or divine ability. There needs to be a single way of determining how the doubling/tripling/x multiplication working when dealing with movement speed bonuses.

In that case it only triples your base movement speed, anything else is not tripled, but rather, a bonus.
 



dante58701

First Post
Ive just thought of an optional way to deal with outsiders.

We could, since outsiders are former mortals in most cases...offer this alternative to revising the entire fiend.

Offer up the fiends abilities as a packaged template.

Example:A human becomes a pit fiend. He acquires the base pit fiend abilities as a template, sans Hit Dice. This way there could be a 1 HD pit fiend fresh out of Infernal Lawschool, who though big, isnt very powerful yet. When he achieves higher levels, he acquries better and better divine templates.

Of course we should impose Hit Dice limitations based on the minimum Hit Dice of the particular fiend.

Example:13 HD Sorcerer dies and goes to hell. He acquires the pit fiend template. As a sorcerer his Hit Dice really suck, he shoulda been a faithfull Cleric or a Fighter, but he'll do because he's got potent magic.

So we end up with a non-divine pit fiend sorcerer.

This option allows for there to be divine pit fiends and non-divine pit fiends (the non-divine being unworthy in the eyes of all other pit fiends).

It also allows for an explaination regarding how mortals become things like pit fiends.

We then apply the appropriate divine template (assuming they have earned it).

This makes for ease of conversion. Not to mention most fiends have abilities that are overlapped by the divine templates anyways.

Im sure to get a lot of...thats a stupid idea...but...it's just an idea.

I also kinda like the idea of making Pit Fiend minotaurs this way.

Just imagine flaming moo devils of flamy doom doom, wielding flamy doom doom scimitars.
 
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WarDragon

First Post
No. Mortals in Hell start out as soul shells, and if they're really evil and really lawful, and really lucky, they eventually get turned into lemures. About one in a billion lemures becomes a barbazu (I think), and barbazu that do well get promoted to the next tier, and so on. The other planes use similar systems. You don't go straight from mortal to the top of the heap, and souls serve more as raw material than anything else.
 

dante58701

First Post
I kinda expected that from you War Dragon...more negativity. Really...if you cant use CONSTRUCTIVE criticism...please keep your peanut gallery comments to yourself. You actually aren't contributing anything but the ever oppressive word NO. More and more I understand the name War Dragon. It suites you.

And there are examples of elite mortals becoming specific fiend types. Orcus himself was once human, though his depravity made him into a demon.

Anyway...

I had an idea for an epic level campaign. It involves elementalists. My question though is this. How would classes like this mesh with the various elemental portfolios? Would the wizard automatically know the elemental spells for his school or would he have to keep learning them.

Pyromancer is essentially a specialist wizard specialized in the fire school. They automatically have Aquamancy (cold, water) as their Prohibited School.

The other elemental specialists are Aeromancer (Air, Electricity), Aquamancer (Cold, Water), and Geomancer (Acid, Earth). Their Prohibited Schools are Geomancer, Pyromancer (Fire), and Aeromancer, perspectively.

Elementalist Master Specialists follow the same rules as Master Specialist (pyromancers).

Their esoteric are base on the conjuration and evocation esoterica.


Master Specialist – Pyromancer
A master specialist (pyromancer) acquires two esoterica per esoterica tier, though each of these esoterica are more focused and specialized variations of the existing esoterica of the schools of conjuration and evocation. A master specialist (pyromancer) otherwise follows the same progression and game rules as a master specialist and has the following esoterica.
Minor Esoterica (pyromancer): Any fire creature (any creature with the fire subtype) you summon or call appears with extra hit points equal to your caster level. When casting a pyromancy spell (any spell with the fire descriptor), you gain a bonus on Concentration checks equal to 1/2 your master specialist level.
Moderate Esoterica (pyromancer): Dispel checks made against your pyromancy spells (any spells with the fire descriptor) treat your caster level as if it were 5 higher than normal. You gain resistance 20 to fire.
Major Esoteric (pyromancer): You can cast a pyromancy spell (any spell with the fire descriptor) with a casting time of 1 standard action as a swift action. Any creature that fails its save against one of your
pyromancy spells (any spells with the fire descriptor) takes damage again 1 round later equal to half the damage it took when you cast the spell.
 
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WarDragon

First Post
I kinda expected that from you War Dragon...more negativity. Really...if you cant use CONSTRUCTIVE criticism...please keep your peanut gallery comments to yourself. You actually aren't contributing anything but the ever oppressive word NO. More and more I understand the name War Dragon. It suites you.

And there are examples of elite mortals becoming specific fiend types. Orcus himself was once human, though his depravity made him into a demon.
Pardon me for saving you unnecessary work. I'm just saying, the mechanism for mortals becoming outsiders already exists, no need to make one. Even if Orcus was mortal once (which I don't buy into, personally), he worked his way up through the ranks, starting as a mane.

Your elemental specialist thing looks alright, though.
 

Pssthpok

First Post
Seeing a 1 HD pit fiend would probably be enough to make me throw away my dice. Possibly the worst idea ever, sorry dante but it's true. Could you imagine if the guy didn't get to CR 20... what's he gonna do? Take a job at Hot Topic? Or better yet, become a fixture for the picture for a Church of Satan book cover. I mean, a Pit Fiend is a Pit Fiend because it's the top of the heap, not because it's a race, like elves or orcs. What you're talking about is tantamount to seeing 'baby devils', which is anathema to the entire idea. The only thing I can see trying to rig up regarding this is a sort of age category for devils, based more off a combination of merit and age than age alone, with each category taking the creature up a notch in the hierarchy.
 

dante58701

First Post
Thats kinda what Im looking for. A prestige class for becoming a devil...sans divine template. Using just the rules in the Monster Manual. This way it would be justified for the slapping on of the divine template since it is being slapped onto a character with class levels, rather than a full blown outsider.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hi dante mate! :)

dante58701 said:
Thats kinda what Im looking for. A prestige class for becoming a devil...sans divine template. Using just the rules in the Monster Manual. This way it would be justified for the slapping on of the divine template since it is being slapped onto a character with class levels, rather than a full blown outsider.

You don't really need a Prestige Class for that, Just make a list of devils from Lemure to Pit Fiend status and use each incarnation as a 'level'.

Of course you might have to toy about with the ECL/XP to match the core class progression. But it shouldn't be too difficult.
 

CR2000

First Post
Divine Immensity allows you to change your size at will to any size. Would this eliminate the need of a diety druid grabbing all the (size) Wild Shape epic feats? Divine Immensity allows for sizes smaller and greater than what those feats allow and I asume your manifestation would be the deity regardles of what he could potentially turn himself into. So I think it would erase the need for that deity to have to grab those epic feats.

Does Legendary Companion work on a druid companion if he has taken the Beast Companion or Dragon companion epic feats?


After contemplation I think that the size wild shape feats woudl allow to to wild shape into, say, a Gargantuan elemental and then use divine immensity to get bigger, otherwise you woudl have to wild shape into a normal huge elemental and divine immensity to get bigger. The (size) wild shape feats could be used to start you off with the bigger badder stat version of creatures. Without Colossal Wild Shape you'd wild shape into a Gargantuan Dragon and have to use Divine Immenisty to get bigger, while with Colossal wild shape you coudl wild shape into those badder dragons with the better starting stats, and then divine immensity from there......?? Right, still use both?
 
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Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey CR2000 dude! :)

CR2000 said:
Divine Immensity allows you to change your size at will to any size.

Technically it only allows you to change size by +/-1 size category per Divine Immensity.

CR2000 said:
Would this eliminate the need of a diety druid grabbing all the (size) Wild Shape epic feats? Divine Immensity allows for sizes smaller and greater than what those feats allow and I asume your manifestation would be the deity regardles of what he could potentially turn himself into. So I think it would erase the need for that deity to have to grab those epic feats.

Well those epic feats would stack with Divine Immensity so if a Druid had Colossal Wildshape and Divine Immensity - they could wildshape into a colossal monster and then grow to Titanic size.

CR2000 said:
Does Legendary Companion work on a druid companion if he has taken the Beast Companion or Dragon companion epic feats?

Good question.

I will say yes, but I need to go over the mechanics of those feats to make sure the balance is right. What I suggest is that you make sure you use the Challenge Ratings in version 6 and that when you apply the Legendary Template.

Technically no Companion should have a CR greater than half your druid level.

So a Legendary Great Wyrm Black Dragon would be CR 81*, so you would need to be a 162nd-level Druid to get one of those.

GWBD = CR 31.

Legendary Template = CR +6*, +0.45 extra HD (for Dragons).

*Technically that may be one or two points too high considering Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance would not be factors since dragons already have those.

CR2000 said:
After contemplation I think that the size wild shape feats woudl allow to to wild shape into, say, a Gargantuan elemental and then use divine immensity to get bigger, otherwise you woudl have to wild shape into a normal huge elemental and divine immensity to get bigger. The (size) wild shape feats could be used to start you off with the bigger badder stat version of creatures. Without Colossal Wild Shape you'd wild shape into a Gargantuan Dragon and have to use Divine Immenisty to get bigger, while with Colossal wild shape you coudl wild shape into those badder dragons with the better starting stats, and then divine immensity from there......?? Right, still use both?

Absolutely.

Of course the problem you face with stacking too many size templates is that your attack penalty for size will eventually be greater than your attack bonus because (unlike monsters) you won't gain any extra hit dice.

So there is a reason why they all don't just take Divine Immensity x10. ;)
 

CR2000

First Post
Upper_Krust said:
Hey CR2000 dude! :)

Hello UK!!
Technically it only allows you to change size by +/-1 size category per Divine Immensity.

Yeah, duh! Maybe I should read the wholefeat next time, sorry.

Well those epic feats would stack with Divine Immensity so if a Druid had Colossal Wildshape and Divine Immensity - they could wildshape into a colossal monster and then grow to Titanic size.

Now that I know DI is a one size per take of the ability, yeah it all makes a whole lot more sense now. If it was a 'take it once' ability for any size catogory you wanted than you coudl see why I had that inital questions, but with knowing it's only a one size cat bump, it all gels.

Good question.

I try, sometimes.

I will say yes, but I need to go over the mechanics of those feats to make sure the balance is right. What I suggest is that you make sure you use the Challenge Ratings in version 6 and that when you apply the Legendary Template.

Technically no Companion should have a CR greater than half your druid level.

So a Legendary Great Wyrm Black Dragon would be CR 81*, so you would need to be a 162nd-level Druid to get one of those.

GWBD = CR 31.

Legendary Template = CR +6*, +0.45 extra HD (for Dragons).

*Technically that may be one or two points too high considering Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance would not be factors since dragons already have those.

I'm working with a 100 Hit Die druid who's a greater deity, +80 ECL. I'll figure it out, thanks though. I thought maybe you'd have another feat for those like Legdenay Dragon Companion or some crap like that, ya know.



Thanks for the clarification.
 

Upper_Krust

Adventurer
CR2000 said:
Hello UK!!

Hey CR2000 mate! :)

CR2000 said:
Yeah, duh! Maybe I should read the wholefeat next time, sorry.

No harm done. You probably got it confused with the Salient Divine Ability from Deities & Demigods.

CR2000 said:
Now that I know DI is a one size per take of the ability, yeah it all makes a whole lot more sense now. If it was a 'take it once' ability for any size catogory you wanted than you coudl see why I had that inital questions, but with knowing it's only a one size cat bump, it all gels.

:)

CR2000 said:
I'm working with a 100 Hit Die druid who's a greater deity, +80 ECL. I'll figure it out, thanks though.

In such cases you could use ECL instead of level (or certainly ECL up to double the class level).

So 100th-level Druid + Greater Deity Template = ECL 180 = CR 120.

Basically you don't want a Companion more powerful than CR 90. Which I think would mean everything except a Legendary Great Wyrm Gold Dragon (CR 93*)

A Legendary Tarrasque would be CR 84*.

*In both cases I might reduce the CRs by 2 because those creatures already have Spell Resistance and Damage Reduction.

If you have any creatures in mind let me know and I will give you the Legendary CRs.

It can be tricky to work out because the CR factors for HD are different depending on the monster type.

CR2000 said:
I thought maybe you'd have another feat for those like Legdenay Dragon Companion or some crap like that, ya know.

I try to keep it to a minimum, although looking at the 400+ abilities in the book you probably could be forgiven for thinking I am trying to confuse matters. :D

CR2000 said:
Thanks for the clarification.

Happy to help dude. :)
 



Upper_Krust

Adventurer
Hey guys! :)

I apologise about the lack of an update over the past week. I'm trying to make the transition from working on the text to working on the art. What might not be apparent is that there is quite a bit of prep work that goes into an illustration. The second reason updates have been slow for the past week or two is that errata is not the most interesting aspect to work upon; so I thought to stagger it over the next few weeks in between illustrative lulls. Also things like the missing portfolio powers needed a lot of brainstorming to fix.

However, I understand many of you want to see an update, so I will temporarily abandon working on the art for 2-3 days, concentrate on the errata and missing text, and then update in a few days time (say Thursday night).
 

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