NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there Xzoltar!

I was reading my updated Immortal Handbook and the section about Avatars and Aspects. I see no limit on the number of avatar or aspect an Immortal can have (I have place myself a limit equal to his divine rank for avatar and twice is divine rank for aspects). However, what I feel a bit much is using all theses avatars and aspects at once.

Avatars cost 10% of your quintessence, therefore you could theoretically have 8 at any given time (having 9 would drop you down a divine status). However most deities will only have one. I suggest that each god will only have one Avatar, assuming they have one at all.

Aspects cost 0.1% but are very weak in the grand scheme of things. I think gods will probably have one aspect for each campaign world they are worshipped upon.

I think most Immortal need to send their Avatar around the planes to fullfill is goal, same goes for aspects, but what for Player Character who go to battle sumonning all is avatar (let's say a Lesser God with 50 HD and 10 Avatar of 25 HD and rank 8). Will all thoses avatars he can cast a lot of spells, or use them to boost is Epic Spells via extra spellcaster or lot of others things.

Aspects are the ones mortal worshippers might be able to summon. The Avatar is what the deity will send itself to the prime material plane.

Also note that Avatars only have half the divine rank of the deity. So a Lesser God could only create a divine rank 4 Quasi-deity as its Avatar.

My question now is, is that possible to include a small text about the use of a avatar and a aspect for a Immortal. why the create them, how they use them and why they just dont always fight using all of them at once (maybe because they are lot weaker than himself and if all are destroy at once, its a big lost of Quintessence for that Immortal) ?

I will try and add some stuff on that, although I am already nearly maxing out Ascension in terms of space, so any indepth treatment will have to wait until Chronicle...and heavens knows when I'll have that ready for.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

Gods and Cosmic Entities never have an avatar or an aspect in the same location. If they are in a battle, they will most likely call in servitors and minions to fight in their place. Thats what minions are for. Gods and Cosmic entities have many more important things to do, rather than fight mortals, at the drop of a hat. Mortals don't dictate to Gods... it's the other way around.

Avatars and Aspects are too valuable to have two in the same place anyways. Having two in the same place would defeat the purpose of them, to begin with. :\

Exactly. I think there could be the makings of an Event modifier in there.

Deities probably shouldn't gain any worship points in situations where they field multiple copies of themselves, because it will simply confuse their worshippers.

When clerics summon an Aspect, for all intents and purposes they believe that to be 'the god' or an extension of the god.

So when you field two or more aspects/avatars its just going to confuse people.

 

[paradox42]

On the whole its almost impossible to regulate because there is no set limit to the amount of strength a being can have.

True.

Logically it should be x2 Elder, x4 Old, x16 First, x32 Stage I, x64 Stage II, x128 Stage III, x256 Time Lord.

This assumes a layer is the squared root of a plane, which is itself the square root of a dimension which is the square root of a universe.

Stepping aside from the mathematical abstraction of universes, I have to say I find this particularly interesting since I was actually going to suggest something similar in a follow-up post- it's obvious (to me, at least) that the Time Lord multiplier of 1000 is awfully close to 1024, a perfect power of 2, and that the Sidereal multipliers are multiples of 2 (if not powers themselves). Thus, the Stage X Demiurges should rise from whatever the First One is to Time Lord in further powers of 2 to make the progression a relatively smooth curve, even if it's made of only three discrete points. I think the numbers I came up with (based on First Ones having x8, which is 2^3) were x16 for Stage I (2^4), x64 for Stage II (2^6), and x256 for Stage III (2^8).

I'm sure part of the reason I started thinking this way is due to one of my "geek points," that I have the powers of 2 memorized going up to the 20th (which is the true size of a megabyte- 1048576). So I tend to notice powers of 2 better than most other people.

It really depends on how you want the progression between the stages to work I suppose. Anyway, it's an interesting exercise.

That suggests:

Elder One: 254/die = Average 35,560 hp

Old One: 548/die = Average 109,600 hp

First One: 2480/die = Average 694,400 hp

Stage I Demiurge: 5536/die using d100's= Average 2,214,400 hp
or 34,336/die using d1000's = Average 13,734,400 hp

Stage II Demiurge: 13,248/die using d100's = Average 7,418,880 hp
or 70,848/die using d1000's = Average 39,674,880 hp

Stage III Demiurge: 30,848/die = Average 24,678,400 hp
or 146,048/die using d1000's = Average 116,830,000 hp

Time Lord: 80,640/die using d100's = Average 80,559,360 hp
or 311,040/die using d1000's = Average 310,072,000 hp*

*I'll almost certainly be using d1000's for time lords and above.

The big gap with the multipliers seems to be when you move from d100's to d1000 hit die as you noted yourself.

Don't all these beings get maximum hit points per die by their templates, so averages don't matter? Or were you adding an average CON bonus to those numbers? In any case those numbers above have a nice progression to them, and look good to me.

 

[Xzoltar]

Also note that Avatars only have half the divine rank of the deity. So a Lesser God could only create a divine rank 4 Quasi-deity as its Avatar.

That's how it work in normal D&D rules, by in the Immortal Handbook, Avatars have the rank or the Immortal -2 and Aspect -4. So assuming a Lesser God of Rank 9, is Avatar will be level 7 (IH P.14) its HD that is divided by two not Divine Rank.

I understand that in theory Avatar are too precious to simply have two or more at the same place at the same time, but in reality a player may certainly want to have multiple Avatar (even if that's make him lose a Divine Rank, will all thoses Avatars he can bump is power a lot more and then regain is lost rank and probably many more.

Sometime the line is pretty thick between roleplaying and rollplaying... So if we adjust Divine Power so that they are balanced and not Broken, I think we should do the same with Avatar and Aspects. Something akin to you can have as many as you want, but having two avatar at the same place could bring some penality or I dont really know... I will still continue to think about that from a point view of a DM with player's that have optimization in mind...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Stepping aside from the mathematical abstraction of universes, I have to say I find this particularly interesting since I was actually going to suggest something similar in a follow-up post- it's obvious (to me, at least) that the Time Lord multiplier of 1000 is awfully close to 1024, a perfect power of 2, and that the Sidereal multipliers are multiples of 2 (if not powers themselves). Thus, the Stage X Demiurges should rise from whatever the First One is to Time Lord in further powers of 2 to make the progression a relatively smooth curve, even if it's made of only three discrete points. I think the numbers I came up with (based on First Ones having x8, which is 2^3) were x16 for Stage I (2^4), x64 for Stage II (2^6), and x256 for Stage III (2^8).

Yes I was considering this myself. Start the time lord at x1000 and working backwards.

I'm sure part of the reason I started thinking this way is due to one of my "geek points," that I have the powers of 2 memorized going up to the 20th (which is the true size of a megabyte- 1048576). So I tend to notice powers of 2 better than most other people.

I have them memorized up to 21!

It really depends on how you want the progression between the stages to work I suppose. Anyway, it's an interesting exercise.

Thats the key, incidently I just (last night) uncovered a flaw in my Encounter Level system (naturally I have corrected it immediately) which could prove interesting and relevant. I'll post in the challenging challenge ratings thread after I reply to Xzoltar.

Don't all these beings get maximum hit points per die by their templates, so averages don't matter? Or were you adding an average CON bonus to those numbers? In any case those numbers above have a nice progression to them, and look good to me.

Average Constitution.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Xzoltar!

That's how it work in normal D&D rules,

Not exactly. In Deities & Demgods they keep the same Hit Dice/Levels but halve Divine Rank.

In the Immortals Handbook you halve Hit Dice/Leveles AND Divine Rank for Avatars.

by in the Immortal Handbook, Avatars have the rank or the Immortal -2 and Aspect -4. So assuming a Lesser God of Rank 9, is Avatar will be level 7 (IH P.14) its HD that is divided by two not Divine Rank.

IF a Lesser God has Divine Rank 8, then its Avatar will be a Quasi-deity (Divine Rank 4 with half the hit dice/levels of the Lesser God).

While its Aspect will be Divine Rank 2 (Prophet) and have one quarter the Hit Dice/levels of the lesser god.

I understand that in theory Avatar are too precious to simply have two or more at the same place at the same time, but in reality a player may certainly want to have multiple Avatar (even if that's make him lose a Divine Rank, will all thoses Avatars he can bump is power a lot more and then regain is lost rank and probably many more.

I think the deity should be the equivalent of its 10 Avatars (see the CCR thread on the new news I just spoke of those of you with puzzled looks on your faces as to why a god is not the same as 4-5 of its avatars).

Likewise they are the equivalent of 100 Aspects.

Sometime the line is pretty thick between roleplaying and rollplaying... So if we adjust Divine Power so that they are balanced and not Broken, I think we should do the same with Avatar and Aspects. Something akin to you can have as many as you want, but having two avatar at the same place could bring some penality or I dont really know... I will still continue to think about that from a point view of a DM with player's that have optimization in mind...

But if you allow people to have as many Avatars as they want then they will take infinite.

For every Avatar the deity creates, it loses 10% of its quintessence.

If you want an even harsher regime I would proffer that as well as losing 10% quintessence, you lose one divine rank (in terms of divine bonus, ability scores and so forth), but still retain your overall divine status.

So creating an Avatar would give the immortal a -1 Divine Penalty on all rolls and a -2 penalty on all ability scores.

 

[Xzoltar]

F a Lesser God has Divine Rank 8, then its Avatar will be a Quasi-deity (Divine Rank 4 with half the hit dice/levels of the Lesser God).

I just reread page 24, I was reading 2 divine rank lesser , but its two divine status, make sense now...

 

[dante58701]

If you want an even harsher regime I would proffer that as well as losing 10% quintessence, you lose one divine rank (in terms of divine bonus, ability scores and so forth), but still retain your overall divine status.

So creating an Avatar would give the immortal a -1 Divine Penalty on all rolls and a -2 penalty on all ability scores.

I personally think we should try to keep an already complicated system down to a real world usable level. Not all gamers are mathematicians.

Implementing such a plan regarding avatars, when the current system is more than adequate, is just going to confuse most gamers.


I know I don't want to have to keep track of every little avatar on every little world and keep adjusting a gods statistics every five seconds because he wants to pop out cannon fodder.

The real secret to game balance is the word NO!!!

As in...

NO!!! Your character can't have a +10 Omega Blast Soul Stealer!!!

or

NO!!! You cannot create an avatar without expending the quintessence!!!

or

NO!!! You can't have my beer!!!

Old fashioned DMing has always been a big problem with most game tables (as in it isn't implemented)...most DMs let their gamers walk all over the game. Just simply implement the existing rules and don't let them twist those rules.

And especially don't let the power gamers twist those rules, no matter how much they whine of bribe you with cheetos.

The other problem is we would also have to reduce a god's stats everytime it birthed progeny. Divine progeny are essentially freewilled avatars. I see a big problem with allowing a god to be penalized for being fruitful and multiplying. Especially in terms of Greek gods. They were rampantly promiscuous. Yet...they retained all their power and in some instances even became more powerful.

While I do agree with a quintessence cost. I think it should remain as it is.

 

[Pssthpok]

Do multiple Rotting [Effects] stack, like in the case of being in the area of a Rotting Storm, or being struck multiple times by an entity with Rotting Strike?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

I personally think we should try to keep an already complicated system down to a real world usable level. Not all gamers are mathematicians.

Implementing such a plan regarding avatars, when the current system is more than adequate, is just going to confuse most gamers.

I don't really see this as a problem. I don't imagine its going to be a regular occurance.

I know I don't want to have to keep track of every little avatar on every little world and keep adjusting a gods statistics every five seconds because he wants to pop out cannon fodder.

Either gods create the avatar(s) or they don't. These things don't pop out on a whim.

The real secret to game balance is the word NO!!!

As in...NO!!! Your character can't have a +10 Omega Blast Soul Stealer!!!

or...NO!!! You cannot create an avatar without expending the quintessence!!!

or...NO!!! You can't have my beer!!!

Old fashioned DMing has always been a big problem with most game tables (as in it isn't implemented)...most DMs let their gamers walk all over the game. Just simply implement the existing rules and don't let them twist those rules.

And especially don't let the power gamers twist those rules, no matter how much they whine of bribe you with cheetos.

Epic DMs have to be strict disciplinarians. At epic levels the PCs already have so many 'get out of jail free cards' that you can't be seen to give them an inch.

The other problem is we would also have to reduce a god's stats everytime it birthed progeny. Divine progeny are essentially freewilled avatars. I see a big problem with allowing a god to be penalized for being fruitful and multiplying. Especially in terms of Greek gods. They were rampantly promiscuous. Yet...they retained all their power and in some instances even became more powerful.

While I do agree with a quintessence cost. I think it should remain as it is.

Progeny are progeny. That has nothing to do with Avatars.