NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Upper_Krust]

UK,

Hi there!

Are bonus damage dice from Strike [Effects] multiplied on a critical hit?

No.

However, I would contemplate a special strike which did half damage which was actually multiplied on a crit...which is how some magic item speial abilities indirectly work.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there adslahanit!

According to the rules for Virtual Size Categories presented in the Epic Bestiary, constructs with VSCs receive bonus hp as if they were constructs of the adjusted size (so a Huge construct with 2 VSCs would count as a Colossal construct for the purpose of bonus hp, and would thus receive +80 hp instead of +40 hp). However, some of the golems receive in the bestiary receive too little or too much construct bonus hp for their adjusted size:

Orichalcum Guardian (Medium size, +15 VSCs from Orichalcum, effectively Macro-Titanic size) = +3,840 hp (originally +5,120 hp)
Orichalcum Golem (Large size, +15 VSCs from Orichalcum, effectively Mega-Fine size) = +5,120 hp (originally +7,680 hp)
Orichalcum Sentinel (Huge size, +15 VSCs from Orichalcum, effectively Mega-Diminutive size) = +7,680 hp (originally +10,240 hp)
Orichalcum Gargant (Gargantuan size, +15 VSCs from Orichalcum, effectively Mega-Tiny size) = +10,240 hp (originally +15,360 hp)
Orichalcum Colossus (Colossal size, +15 VSCs from Orichalcum, effectively Mega-Small size) = +15,360 hp (originally +20,480 hp)
Orichalcum Leviathan (Titanic size, +15 VSCs from Orichalcum, effectively Mega-Medium size) = +20,480 hp (originally +30,720 hp)
Neutronium Golem (Large size, +32 VSCs from Neutronium, effectively Giga-Gargantuan size) = +1,966,080 hp (originally +1,310,720 hp)

I think the constructs were worked out with a different density rating for orichalcum and neutronium than were listed in the density table (which is only a rough approximation and over simplification).

So orichalcum is listed about 1 million times more dense than iron when the golem entry (and material) has it at over 2 million.

...at least I think thats the case...off the top of my head.

Another thing I noticed was that an animated moon/planet or a golem with the shape, size, and density of a moon/planet simply has so much more HP than just a regular moon/planet. Let's take the earth for example.

Correct.

It has a mass of approximately 6.58 zettatons (according to my extrapolated size category weights, that should fall under the approximate mass of a Mega-Titanic creature, 1-8 zettatons), and with the rule that inanimate objects have hp equivalent to the bonus hp that a construct of their weight would have received, the earth has approximately 122,880 hp. However, if the earth were to be turned into an animated object, it receives HD since it's now a construct, and using the rule that spherical creatures have HD equivalent to the creature's diameter in feet (the earth has a mean diameter of about 7,919.744939553 miles), the earth is now a 41,816,253 HD Mega-Colossal animated object. That obviously has a lot more hp than when it was as just an inanimate planet, and that's not even including its construct bonus hp.

Let's try a sentient earth from a different approach by instead creating a golem in its likeness. According to the bestiary, a golem's HD is equivalent to [9 + 1/2 Material Strength Modifier], adjusted by the size of the golem. Since a Huge golem is x2, a Gargantuan golem is x4, a Colossal golem is x8, and a Titanic golem is x16, we can extrapolate from this doubling progression the following table:

Macro-Fine = x32
Macro-Diminutive = x64
Macro-Tiny = x128
Macro-Small = x256
Macro-Medium = x512
Macro-Large = x1,024
Macro-Huge = x2,048
Macro-Gargantuan = x4,096
Macro-Colossal = x8,192
Macro-Titanic = x16,384
Mega-Fine = x32,768
Mega-Diminutive = x65,536
Mega-Tiny = x131,072
Mega-Small = x262,144
Mega-Medium = x524,288
Mega-Large = x1,048,576
Mega-Huge = x2,097,152
Mega-Gargantuan = x4,194,304
Mega-Colossal = x8,388,608

A Mega-Colossal creature with humanoid proportions would have a height of 12,288-24,576 miles, and we half that for the diameter of a spherical creature (bringing it down to 6,144-12,288 miles), and since the earth has a mean diameter of 7,919.744939553 miles, the earth is a Mega-Colossal creature. The earth has a density of 5.513 grams per cubic centimeter which means it would weigh approximately 4.6 times heavier than a creature made of flesh and bone (1.2 grams per cubic centimeter), giving "earth material" (consider things fashioned from it having a crust, mantle, and core) a material strength modifier of +23. Therefore, a Mega-Colossal golem made of "earth material" would have HD equivalent to [(9 + 11) x 8,388,608]. Thus, a Mega-Colossal spherical golem with the exact composition and density of the earth would have 167,772,160 HD.

So why exactly does a creature with the exact dimensions and density of the earth have millions more hp than just the earth? And why does a golem with the composition and size of the earth also have millions more hp than a non-golem creature with the size and material of the earth?

The quick answer is that D20 wasn't built to operate at these levels and I am just trying to make the best of a flawed system.

There are any number of factors and/or arguments that can tip things one way or the other.

The discrepancy between object and monster hit points arises due to the hit points vs. damage output of D20 power scaling.

I knew how damage scaled in D&D and therefore how much damage nukes would deal. I also knew what power of explosion would destroy the Earth. Thus correlating the two was simple.

However, there also exists in D&D the parallel of Hit Dice doubling with each size category.

Thus creating our Catch 22.

As for the minor difference between using Hit Dice or the Golem Creation system I don't see that as a major issue at all.

 

[Farealmer3]

Material Strength applies (to give more hp) only via Virtual Size Categories.

Just to clarify that means only VSC's apply to objects. Which means an objects weight/density are the only things that apply for it in terms of bonus HP?

I ask this because materials in fantasy/sci fi often are tougher than normal materials but weight less. Does this mean such materials like secondary adamantium from marvel have a higher hardness only but the same amount of HP as an object of their size?

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Thanks for the reply, U_K. I've got a couple more sets of questions for you if you don't mind.

Firstly, what are the calculations for nuclear weapon damage? You stated that a 64x increase in tonnage results in twice the dice for all effects, so a 4096x increase in tonnage results in 4x damage, a 262144x increase in tonnage results in 8x damage, etc. However, the differences in ground zero-damage between a megaton (DC 72 disintegration, 120d6 fire, 180d6 bludgeoning, 18 radiation) and 150 petatons (DC 135 disintegration, 1400d6 fire, 2000d6 bludgeoning, 200 radiation) show this not to be the case since the energy difference is 150-billion-fold. If we go with "64x energy = 2x damage", it would require a 64^6.19-fold increase in energy from 1 megaton in order to reach 150 petatons, bringing the bludgeoning and fire damage to 13142d6 (180 * 2^6.19) and 8761d6 (120 * 2^6.19) respectively. Additionally, wouldn't this mean in either case that 150 billion individual 1-megaton bombs do much more damage than a single 150-petaton bomb? On a side note, are those caught in the blast of 150 petatons (from a neutronium golem's starquake) or a megaton (from an orichalcum golem's starquake) entitled to Fortitude saves to halve the bludgeoning and fire damage, akin to the Kiloton epic spell?

Secondly, off the top of your head, how much CR adjustment or feat equivalents would you consider the following monster abilities to be:

An extraordinary ability that makes the creature immune to being surprised and never caught flat-footed (akin to a Foresight spell or a minotaur's natural cunning)?

An extraordinary ability that lets the creature add or subtract up to 300 Strength (to a minimum of 3) from any creature in sight as a free action, but can only have a total added or subtracted Strength of 300 amongst all creatures affected (so it could give +300 Strength to one creature, +1 Strength to 300 creatures, +150 Strength to one creature and -150 Strength to another creature, or +300 Strength to itself)?

 

[paradox42]

An extraordinary ability that makes the creature immune to being surprised and never caught flat-footed (akin to a Foresight spell or a minotaur's natural cunning)?

This is a feat in the Epic feats section of Chapter 4 of Ascension. Sixth Sense.

An extraordinary ability that lets the creature add or subtract up to 300 Strength (to a minimum of 3) from any creature in sight as a free action, but can only have a total added or subtracted Strength of 300 amongst all creatures affected (so it could give +300 Strength to one creature, +1 Strength to 300 creatures, +150 Strength to one creature and -150 Strength to another creature, or +300 Strength to itself)?

That's a weird one. My estimate would be Transcendental if you add +300 to one, but adding +1 to 300 individuals is absurdly weak by comparison and probably barely worth a Divine.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

That's a weird one. My estimate would be Transcendental if you add +300 to one, but adding +1 to 300 individuals is absurdly weak by comparison and probably barely worth a Divine.

So Transcendental since the you can always opt to do a single +300 or -300 anyway?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Just to clarify that means only VSC's apply to objects. Which means an objects weight/density are the only things that apply for it in terms of bonus HP?

I ask this because materials in fantasy/sci fi often are tougher than normal materials but weight less. Does this mean such materials like secondary adamantium from marvel have a higher hardness only but the same amount of HP as an object of their size?

In a nutshell, yes.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Adslahnit!

Thanks for the reply, U_K.

Your welcome!

I've got a couple more sets of questions for you if you don't mind.

Fire away.

Firstly, what are the calculations for nuclear weapon damage? You stated that a 64x increase in tonnage results in twice the dice for all effects, so a 4096x increase in tonnage results in 4x damage, a 262144x increase in tonnage results in 8x damage, etc. However, the differences in ground zero-damage between a megaton (DC 72 disintegration, 120d6 fire, 180d6 bludgeoning, 18 radiation) and 150 petatons (DC 135 disintegration, 1400d6 fire, 2000d6 bludgeoning, 200 radiation) show this not to be the case since the energy difference is 150-billion-fold. If we go with "64x energy = 2x damage", it would require a 64^6.19-fold increase in energy from 1 megaton in order to reach 150 petatons, bringing the bludgeoning and fire damage to 13142d6 (180 * 2^6.19) and 8761d6 (120 * 2^6.19) respectively.

Yes, I simplified it so as to take away a lot of the odd numbers.

Additionally, wouldn't this mean in either case that 150 billion individual 1-megaton bombs do much more damage than a single 150-petaton bomb?

Depends on your damage reduction/resistances doesn't it.

On a side note, are those caught in the blast of 150 petatons (from a neutronium golem's starquake) or a megaton (from an orichalcum golem's starquake) entitled to Fortitude saves to halve the bludgeoning and fire damage, akin to the Kiloton epic spell?

Yes.

Secondly, off the top of your head, how much CR adjustment or feat equivalents would you consider the following monster abilities to be:

An extraordinary ability that makes the creature immune to being surprised and never caught flat-footed (akin to a Foresight spell or a minotaur's natural cunning)?

Well its better than a feat. Is it as good as a Divine Ability...perhaps. Thats my closest guess for now.

An extraordinary ability that lets the creature add or subtract up to 300 Strength (to a minimum of 3) from any creature in sight as a free action, but can only have a total added or subtracted Strength of 300 amongst all creatures affected (so it could give +300 Strength to one creature, +1 Strength to 300 creatures, +150 Strength to one creature and -150 Strength to another creature, or +300 Strength to itself)?

Transcendental.

 

[Upper_Krust]

This is a feat in the Epic feats section of Chapter 4 of Ascension. Sixth Sense.

Well Epic Feat is better than a Feat...shows how bad my memory is.

 

[Farealmer3]

In a nutshell, yes.

Thanks U_K, The next two questions should be it.

1. You put hp per inch of orichalcum in the Beastiary. If you use object size(+vrc) for determining hp of objects why is it included? I presume for the sake of completeness and for determining the fraction hp items and weapons that aren't pure orichalcum are. But i just want to be sure.

2. Since every object made of neutronium is +32 size catagories that would mean a fine sized neutronium object would weight/have more HP more than the Earth? I don't know if thats how it really is or just a flaw of the system but i figured i would ask.