NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Technically magic force should also be stopped by Damage Reduction (whereas Divine Damage should not).

Huh? Force damage has always worked like energy damage with regards to Damage Reduction, in that force effects bypass DR completely just like energy damage would. Magic Missiles never have to go through DR, and neither should other sources of force damage. Or are you proposing a new rule for Ascension wherein force damage is reduced by DR?

However, any being with the Slipstream or Transtemporal powers would likely ignore Timestop. (The wording on slipstream works 'like' Spell-stowaway: Timestop, but I think it should be clarified a bit as it seems intended to work differently)

Yeah, when you absolutely have to give every enemy Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) or Slipstream just to avoid Time Stop, there's a bit of a problem. Come to think of it, Transtemporal is even more cheesy since it does force everyone else to take Slipstream if they don't want to get auto-killed by a time travelling sidereal. What makes Transtemporal fine but Time Stop not, since they both force everyone else to take certain abilities if they wish to stay competitive at epic levels? I thought immunities and one-upmanship were bad for the game.

Using the ELH varient where beings can check SR (or make a will save) against Timestop also makes it leagues more fair.

Even with that variant in place, Time Stop would still be an extremely powerful spell. Every fight for beings without Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) or Slipstream would just be a race to see who can beat SR or the Will save and get off a Time Stop first.

Before everyone panics over time stop, I'd like to remind folks that you can't affect any other creatures while it's running. Sure, it's good for buffing and summoning, but that's it. Also, it can't be extended, only empowered.

Delayed Blast Fireball, anyone? Energy Substituted in case of resistances or immunities, but at that point you should already have ways to convert at least some of the energy damage to divine damage.

Also, it can't be extended, only empowered.

Why not? It has an actual duration... although that duration is only "apparent time". I'd hate to see someone with Persistent Spell (metamagic feat from Complete Arcane) cast a Persistent Time Stop to ZA WARUDO for 24 hours straight though. (Kudos to anyone who gets the reference.) By the way, should Persistent Spell be banned due to it making Extend Spell + AMC completely obsolete?

 

[dante58701]

I liked the old timestop better, when it actually stopped time in a certain radius for 1d4 rounds.

Of course that was old school timestop.

I also like old school stoneskin combined with protection from normal missiles.

I also want an update soon, I'm getting antsy. Sigh...must wait forever I guess. I guess it wouldn't be so bad if a Gods and Monsters preview were released in time for Halloween.

I think last Halloween I was crossing my fingers for that.

 

[mercucio]

Using the ELH varient where beings can check SR (or make a will save) against Timestop also makes it leagues more fair.

Even with that variant in place, Time Stop would still be an extremely powerful spell. Every fight for beings without Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) or Slipstream would just be a race to see who can beat SR or the Will save and get off a Time Stop first.
Even with that variant in place, Time Stop would still be an extremely powerful spell. Every fight for beings without Spell Stowaway (Time Stop) or Slipstream would just be a race to see who can beat SR or the Will save and get off a Time Stop first.

Umm...are you quoting the right person here? I don't remember saying this at all. Not mad, just very confused.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Yea, he meant to quote me.

I think Transtemporal is ok, mainly because it is a power available only to Elder-god types. Not just anyone can transcend time itself after all. Upping the Ante with immunities is one way to differentiate between different power level tiers within the game.

Timestop is pretty troublesome because it 'only' takes 17 levels of play to get it. In epic play, 17 levels isn't hard to obtain, and the possibility for scrolls and use magic device makes it available to most epic characters. It is one of those spells whose potency requires DM interpretation and, without a strict RAW rule set, can easily break the game. Its not terribly strong, but if (ab)used it could kill the fun of the game for the players. (I know; First hand experience of a loose interpretation = Game killer) But Timestop (and temporal anything in general) is best left up to some sort of guidebook or rule set (like chronicle).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

The advantage of divine damage is that there are no resistances to it. Period. Wanna damage a Time Lord? Divine blast will do it (if you can hit). You could arguably construct an epic spell to resist force effects. (Mimic resistance of force dragons? Ad-Hoc force resistance?) But yea, divine [Effect] deals a pathetic ammount of damage. It is good for absolutely killing mooks. (and by mooks, I mean demigods) but in the hands of anything that could deal decent damage with it, there are way better things to pick up. (Atomic [Effect] and Gravitic [Effect] are clearly superior)

Basically what you do is take the standard damage linked witha portfolio and then it partially or wholly becomes divine (depending on 1 or 2 portfolios worth).

So that makes more sense than going for the 'vanilla' divine damage.

Timestop is one of those things that has an effect greater than the game mechanics can easily balance. Compared to the Maze spell, which is like a reverse Timestop, Timestop is infinitely better because it 1: stops time for everyone in the omniverse but you. Thats like an infinitely twinned Maze spell right there. 2: Is a self-buff, meaning it doesn't actually stop time, but rather speeds you up to ridiculous speeds, meaning by its very nature, unless you ready an action, theres no way to defend against it. and 3: It is metamagic-able, meaning it only gets More unfair as the levels progress. Casting Timestop basically means if there ever was a chance you could win the fight, you do so immediately. A useful mechanic for speeding up epic level play, but since it generally is used on the BBEG at the end of the adventure, it makes for a very anti-climactic fight. (And it is stupid to have to give slipstream to every villain if they don't already have it; Its good to let the players use those powers, but if you had a really cool final encounter planned you probably want it to last longer than a PC rattling off a list of spells he casts and rolling dozens of saves in the first round.)

However, any being with the Slipstream or Transtemporal powers would likely ignore Timestop. (The wording on slipstream works 'like' Spell-stowaway: Timestop, but I think it should be clarified a bit as it seems intended to work differently) Also, I think a being with the Time portfolio, at Prophet level or higher, would be immune. That still leaves lots of epic and divine beings with little defense, but a strict interpretation of the spell (Self Buffs and Delay metamagic only) makes it a bit less auto-win. Using the ELH varient where beings can check SR (or make a will save) against Timestop also makes it leagues more fair.

Maybe Time Stop should allow spellcasters to actually stop time, but just for one action, allowing you to affect others (Auto Coup De Grace if so wished).

Something akin to a "Bend Time" could mimic the current Time Stop type magic (whereby you cannot affect others).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello!

Another mechanics question.

I'm working on another divine ability/possible weapon special ability that allows the possessor to capture the soul of any creature they slay with a successful level check against a DC of 20 + target's HD + divine rank (if any). The possessor can capture up to their divine rank in foes in this manner, with divine foes counting as their divine rank in foes. Thus a greater deity with this ability could imprison 16 non-divine souls in with ability, two lesser deities, or a single greater deity. So far so good. My problem lies in what to do with the imprisoned souls. Should you be capable of expending a soul (thus destroying and requiring a wish/miracle to bring back) to do 1 or more of the following:
-Provide an experience point reserve for casting spells/pay the experience point cost of a single spell.
-Heal the possessor
-Cast X levels of spells for free/restore X levels of expended spells.
-Gain X bonus to rolls for N number of rounds

ect.

I would refer to the powers of Stormbringer (or Blackrazor I suppose) from the 1st Ed D&Dg. Each soul feeds/nourishes you (akin to how energy drain feeds undead). I'd suggest a temporary strength/constitution bonus (or damage/hp bonus, slightly easier to remember I guess).

Lets say the weapon(?) can hold a total of 16 souls (or one DvR 16 spirit, etc.) and gives a +1 str & con bonus (modifier that is) per soul. Souls eaten at midnight, so you habve the power until then.

Thinking of that though it seems a bit weak to have 16 mooks equal to a greater deities spirit. So some thought needs to be put into the balance.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy!

Only one problem with "less IS more", I play a lot of knife/dagger/shuriken throwers, so I NEED an essentially disposable arsenal.

Disposable Artifacts FTW!

/joke.

My players also make heavy use of three-weapon fighting. It's immensely stupid to even have three-weapon fighting in existence, when you didn't bother to account for 6 artifacts.

It just means you are more attack minded than defense minded.

Who is going to use 4 artifacts and 2 crappy weapons. It's a matter of equilibrium.

I thought it was a matter of power gaming, equilibrium has nothing to do with it.

And then of course we have those scary multi-armed folk who make use of lots of weapons.

Like who?

There needs to be a way to get more artifacts.

Use non-epic magic items.

There is one way to bypass this problem, but I'm not going to mention what it is for fear you would find a way to negate it.

Maybe a divine ability? A cosmic ability? Perhaps a ruling for those with extra portfolios?

Any solution is self defeating. Its already an arbitrary rule to try and simplify the game and in some small way mimic mythology. To add another arbitrary rule to overthrow an arbitrary rule bewilders me.

There has to be something legitimate.

Use non-epic items.

 

[dante58701]

Non epic items are just stupid.

Seriously, what exactly is it that would prevent a person who can wield six swords from wielding 6 artifact swords? That's just lame.

The capability is there...they can reach down and pick up the six swords, they can use six swords, so just because all six are artifacts 2 suddenly become unusable?!?

What do they do, fly out of your hand and impale the DM?!?

What's the point of 3 weapon fighting if two of your weapons are essentially useless against any enemy you have?!? What is the point of three weapon fighting if you can't make the most of it?!?

Ok, maybe it's just me, but the illogic of it all especially comes into play when you have 3 portfolios, rather than just 2.

Considering that Artifacts are opposed to each portfolio, shouldn't it, at the very least, make sense that someone with multiple portfolio could have 6 Artifacts?

Logically speaking, wasn't that partly the point of Portfolio Weaknesses regarding artifacts?

Why include Artifacts at all if they aren't going to be more balanced than this?

Example...Dooby is a demi-deity, he has 3 portfolios, this means 3 weapons exist that can destroy him rather than 2. Shouldn't his artifact total be proportional to the increase in artifacts vulnerabilities?

2 vulnerabilities = 4 Artifacts
3 vulnerabilities = 6 Artifacts

Perhaps Artifacts of lesser power than is standard. But a lateral limitation like this makes no sense when you have feats and divine abilities that let you wield more than 4 weapons at once.

Additionally you have Time Dilation, you might as well be letting someone wield 8 Artifacts.

So shouldn't a cosmic ability, at the very least, allow additional artifacts?

I guess I just kinda look at the three weapon fighting thing and go..."whats the friggin point"

Especially since you've already given Alabaster 6 Artifact swords. Setting up in the minds of all that such a thing should be inherently possible by your own rules.

Ur putting people between a rock and a hard place.

Essentially ur saying that people are limited to nonepic items beyond the 4 artifacts. That just doesn't make sense.

Why couldn't they just have weaker artifacts and more of them? To impose such a nonsensical limitation basically strips any DM of bargaining potential when it comes to players who want to use three weapon fighting or abilities that allow the use of multiple weapons.

Maybe people don't want to have that one pretty sword that does a lot of damage in one swipe. Maybe they would rather fill their item slots with weaker artifacts instead of wasting their time on items that are complete crap.

You said yourself that deities won't typically bother with nonepic items...so why not formulate a compromise and just limit it to a total value of artifacts with no single artifact being greater than 1/2 your ECL.

Why the number 4 anyways? It's a rather arbitrary number considering the abilities and expectations you have already delineated along the way with NPCs like Alabaster.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

If you want PCs and NPCs to have 5+ artifacts, let 'em! Nothing says you cant just use the math and compensate for the increase in power for PCs decked out in artifacts.

Example:
Bob the Archpriest, a 20th level Prophet (rank 2) of <Generic Sun God> finds an ancient cache of artifacts relevent to his faith. Among them, the most useful might be a Mace, Helm, Plate Armor, and a Shield. If he wore all of them his ECL would be 30 (20 levels + 10 from template); If he decks himself in 12 of the things instead of just 4, you could calculate Xp reward based on his new effective level. So if he wore all 12 of the artifacts, his ECL would be ~46 ish. (30 base, each extra artifact roughly worth about ~+2 LA give or take) So a challenge that might have net him 10000 Xp might only give him ~6000, because he has all this excess gear doing the work for him; he doesn't have to work as hard and thus won't 'learn' as much from the adventure.

Now, this could ge quite out of control later on (over level 100) and it means that some characters would be grossly more powerful than other because they have a pantheon's worth of relics on their person. If you are OK with this, and you don't mind the extra math and more careful encounter balancing, then it probably works out.

Also, with more than 4 artifacts, you would probably run out of ideas very fast. Alot of the divine npcs I have thrown together for my games and such usually only carry 1 or 2 artifacts because I try to keep them original with unique names, histories, and powers. Throwing together 5+ artifacts would drive me crazy!

 

[dante58701]

Oh, so just up their ECL then?