NEW Immortals Handbook - Ascension thread

[Pssthpok]

Hiya mate!

Hey hey, UK!

Neutronium Golem Slam: 1d8+250 +1d8 fire...doesn't really pack the same punch does it.

Oooh... look out, it's the punisher!
But seriously, what's the loss here? Gravitic aura still comes into play, so the NG's slam damage doesn't have to crack planets in twain, does it? Especially not since, if once gives planet's a hit point total, they'd suffer from Gravitic Aura just as much as an immortal.

In fact if you don't use VSCs then damage becomes next to irrelevant in immortal games, because the amount of damage will consistently drop further and further compared to hit point totals. So you'll end up with a situation where combat between two immortals will take 24 hours to play out. Which might sound about right from a story perspective (or DBZ perspective), but its going to be a nightmare for anyone interested in running an actual immortal campaign.

But again, there's all those neat abilities you've cooked up that sidesteps the necessity of high damage totals. Who needs 30,000d10 per slam when you've got a heat aura that does about 30,000 per round, coupled with a Gravitic Aura that has a 20% HP damage effect and a Fort save against death close to DC 500? The way you've got things set up, immortality sorta precludes damage in the first place.
VSCs look like they complicate things to the effect of a) their own effect on damage, b) that damage's effect on necessary hit point totals, and now c) those hit point totals' effects on the power of all those [Effect] abilities (namely that they're all becoming weaker, while consequently making that NG's Gravitic Aura so much more powerful, relatively speaking).

With regards time lords (which is where the real problem starts) you are basically asking the impossible if you are looking for balance - its as simple as that. There are simply too many variables and options.

It sounds like we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. If time lords "can't" be balanced, why bother at all? Well, we could try dropping VSCs and see how that affects the balance overall. Sure, the NG's slam damage does drop, but I've already shown how that one change does very little to its combat ability; I'm sure the same could be said for any time lord... they'll have other things than slam damage to counterbalance their 'drop' in HP and armed damage from VSCs.

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

There are some crazy builds out there. If anyone is serious about keeping a tight rein on things I suggest you play up to about Greater God/Elder One and use NPCs up to about First One level power.

Indeed, some abilites im conjunction are frightening.

Third Edition really struggles to cope with the power of Eternals.

I predict that at some point you might even create your own system to handle it.

P.S. I haven't gotten ahold of Simon yet (he hasn't popped up on msn over the past few days) but I will definately email him tonight.

Thanks, but it's no sweat. This stuff is refreshingly easy to convert.

 

[Phantom Llama]

Oooh... look out, it's the punisher!
But seriously, what's the loss here? Gravitic aura still comes into play, so the NG's slam damage doesn't have to crack planets in twain, does it? Especially not since, if once gives planet's a hit point total, they'd suffer from Gravitic Aura just as much as an immortal.

That's true, but it's not as cool. The Neutronium Golem is much less fun if its actual punches (and everyone else's) are meaningless, and the game is just people pointing their auras at one another.


Further to my earlier comments on VSCs, the mechanics still make sense even if the density thing is unnecessary. Stronger muscle fibres lead to tougher muscles and bones (to avoid ripping oneself apart) and less fine motor control. The base damage changes just make the mechanics fit better.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey, UK!

Hey Pssthpok matey!

Oooh... look out, it's the punisher!

But seriously, what's the loss here? Gravitic aura still comes into play, so the NG's slam damage doesn't have to crack planets in twain, does it? Especially not since, if once gives planet's a hit point total, they'd suffer from Gravitic Aura just as much as an immortal.

The difference is that you may as well remove physical attacks altogether and have everyone play a wizard at immortal levels if you remove VSCs.

But again, there's all those neat abilities you've cooked up that sidesteps the necessity of high damage totals.

Who needs 30,000d10 per slam when you've got a heat aura that does about 30,000 per round, coupled with a Gravitic Aura that has a 20% HP damage effect and a Fort save against death close to DC 500? The way you've got things set up, immortality sorta precludes damage in the first place.

All aspects of the creature are designed around certain parameters. If one aspect is irrelevant then it should be discarded.

Basically what you are saying (even if you don't realise it) is that there should be no physical combat between immortals.

VSCs look like they complicate things to the effect of a) their own effect on damage, b) that damage's effect on necessary hit point totals, and now c) those hit point totals' effects on the power of all those [Effect] abilities (namely that they're all becoming weaker, while consequently making that NG's Gravitic Aura so much more powerful, relatively speaking).

a) VSCs make physical combat relevant at immortal levels.

b) The power curve dynamic (between hit points and damage) starts to fall back on itself only after you start reaching planet lifting territory.

c) I disagree that these multipliers do adversely affect [Effect] based abilities.

It sounds like we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. If time lords "can't" be balanced, why bother at all?

Just for fun...as I have stated on numerous occasions.

Well, we could try dropping VSCs and see how that affects the balance overall. Sure, the NG's slam damage does drop, but I've already shown how that one change does very little to its combat ability; I'm sure the same could be said for any time lord... they'll have other things than slam damage to counterbalance their 'drop' in HP and armed damage from VSCs.

I hate to go all "Cheiromancer" here, but I'd give up work on every IH book before I'd drop VSCs.

The very illogic of not using them (especially for golems) is anathema to me.

If you want to have trillion ton golems hitting for base 1d6 damage then feel free, but those are not monsters I will ever design.

If you want to have every epic fight take days of game time, then feel free, but thats not something I will ever support.

 

[Frobojoe]

Would it work to just change VCSs base damage (if this is possible at this point) to scale linearly instead of exponentially? I agree that VSCs are a good idea, but having anything scale exponentially is going to lead to problems at some point down the line.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi PL mate!

That's true, but its not as cool. The Neutronium Golem is much less fun if its actual punches (and everyone elses) are meaningless. and the game is just people pointing their auras at one another.

Exactly.

Aside from making melee attacsk irrelevant, abaondoning VSCs also makes dicerolling irrelevant.

Further to my earlier comments on VSCs, the mechanics still make sense even if the density thing is unnecessary. Stronger muscle fibres lead to tougher muscles and bones (to avoid ripping oneself apart) and less fine motor control. The base damage changes just make the mechanics fit better.

Technically it is necessary for constructs made out of denser materials.

As you say its not necessary for others, but I think its too good a parallel to ignore.

 

[Pssthpok]

Hey Pssthpok matey!

Hey hey, UK!

The difference is that you may as well remove physical attacks altogether and have everyone play a wizard at immortal levels if you remove VSCs.

Well, VSCs add to Con, too... so are you sure that's a completely true statement?

Basically what you are saying (even if you don't realise it) is that there should be no physical combat between immortals.

a) VSCs make physical combat relevant at immortal levels.

Well, look: when VSCs make the damage output so high that even YOU admit that something needs to be done and we're then given x1000 HP factors... we're only compounding the problem, don't you think? Physical damage would look okay if hit points weren't so high, which are only so high because VSCs add damage exponentially. Suppose VSCs increased damage linearly? Would that alleviate some of the pressure on hit points at very high levels?

b) The power curve dynamic (between hit points and damage) starts to fall back on itself only after you start reaching planet lifting territory.

Given. But with VSCs as they work now, we're left with a series of unpredictable duct-tape rules that are necessary at the Eternal level; now... I know how unreasonable it is to expect really fine balance at that level, but we're being shoehorned into a situation where we know things are wonky, and it's really only because of the exponential increase in damage dice provided by VSCs.

c) I disagree that these multipliers do adversely affect [Effect] based abilities.

I think it depends on the Effect being discussed. Gravitic Effect stays the same since its power is relative, but Antimatter/Energy/Alignment/etc Effect that deals straight damage dice all get exponentially weaker all because of the duct-tape rule changes required due to the effect of VSCs.

I hate to go all "Cheiromancer" here, but I'd give up work on every IH book before I'd drop VSCs.

Well... that's that then. We'll stay out of your sandbox.

Good luck on the text; hopefully it's 100% by the next update.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Frobojoe mate!

Would it work to just change VCSs base damage (if this is possible at this point) to scale linearly instead of exponentially? I agree that VSCs are a good idea, but having anything scale exponentially is going to lead to problems at some point down the line.

Interesting idea.

Currently VSCs double base damage every 30 points beyond the average for that size.

Medium: Str 40 = x2 base damage, Str 70 = x4, Str 100 = x8, Str 190 = x64, Str 270 = x512 etc.

Str 270 = 480d10+130 = 2770 avg.

One possibility might be to make a double-double a triple.

Str 100 = x4, Str 190 = x7, Str 270 = x10

Str 270 = 10d10+130 = 185 avg.

Another might be to simply give a flat bonus per VSC ~ such as +1d10?

Str 270 = 1d8+130 +18d10 = 233 avg.

To put that into perspective:

Str 100 is roughly the average strength for a First One, Str 190 is about the average strength for a Stage II demiurge and Str 270 is about the average for a Stage II demiurge.

So the question is, should beings of that magnitude be running around dealing damage on a par with a maximised meteor swarm spell...I don't think so.

The key here is simply to cut out or at least down on ways that abuse the system.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey hey, UK!

Hiya mate!

Well, VSCs add to Con, too... so are you sure that's a completely true statement?

Never liked that rule.

But regardless I don't see it affecting our discussion.

Well, look: when VSCs make the damage output so high that even YOU admit that something needs to be done and we're then given x1000 HP factors... we're only compounding the problem, don't you think?

No, because really we are only talking about Eternals...the self same Eternals who can choose Infinite Constitution.

Physical damage would look okay if hit points weren't so high, which are only so high because VSCs add damage exponentially. Suppose VSCs increased damage linearly? Would that alleviate some of the pressure on hit points at very high levels?

No. See my previous post to Frobojoe.

Given. But with VSCs as they work now, we're left with a series of unpredictable duct-tape rules that are necessary at the Eternal level; now... I know how unreasonable it is to expect really fine balance at that level, but we're being shoehorned into a situation where we know things are wonky, and it's really only because of the exponential increase in damage dice provided by VSCs.

Just as the laws of physics break down as you approach the speed of light so do gaming mechanics when you approach time lord power.

I think it depends on the Effect being discussed. Gravitic Effect stays the same since its power is relative, but Antimatter/Energy/Alignment/etc Effect that deals straight damage dice all get exponentially weaker all because of the duct-tape rule changes required due to the effect of VSCs.

The higher you ascend the greater the likelihood someone will have started stacking Effects.

I don't want a situation where someone's Quantum, Telluric, Vammpiric, Anti-Matter Breath automatically wins everytime.

Well... that's that then. We'll stay out of your sandbox.

As I mentioned before I don't mean to go off the deep end on any of this. I appreciate all the feedback and concern from everyone.

But I can only call it as I see it. If you don't use VSCs in an immortal game, physical attacks become next to worthless, especially for sidereals.

Good luck on the text; hopefully it's 100% by the next update.

Thanks mate, although I see the fixing of errata as something that will happen over the course of the next few weeks as I add the illustrations, rather than errata first then illustrations.

 

[Phantom Llama]

RE linear vs. exponential base damage progression: My immediate thought is to switch from an exponential to a linear progression once a certain threshold is reached. That's incredibly ugly though.

Remember that with Quicken Attack and so forth Eternals will be attacking many more times in a single round.