New UA one D&D play test document Dec 1st.

Pauln6

Adventurer
No. The gm need not bump the DC to encounter the 3.5 problems that bounded accuracy was intended to fix. Stock RAW PHB DMG only is enough. Back then you had a situation where some classes vrs some challenges (ie full 1/1 BaB ones & monster ACs became impossible to hit for others (ie fractional BaB ones) if the first set had so much as a chance of missing... The second part of that was in addition if the second group was simply capable of hitting the AC/DC/etc the first group was almost incapable of failure.


5e is designed with all of the DCs set for no expertise & generally for lower level players with lower proficiency bonuses. A character with expertise blows past bounded accuracy both by advancing in levels beyond the narrow band bounded accuracy and by adding double the bonus that is already certain to exceed the math's expectations before getting doubled.

.. Bounded accuracy means that things like expertise and static DCs not linked to levels *can't" exist or that players can't level and all DCs assume expertise
I have had one player take expertise in perception so they have +14 at 15th level, which then becomes +15 to +19 with Guidance, usually rolled with advantage.

Reigning in expertise to half proficiency would bring that down to +11 and making Guidance grant advantage doesn't stack with the racial advantage, so bounded accuracy is back in the room.
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I have had one player take expertise in perception so they have +14 at 15th level, which then becomes +15 to +19 with Guidance, usually rolled with advantage.

Reigning in expertise to half proficiency would bring that down to +11 and making Guidance grant advantage doesn't stack with the racial advantage, so bounded accuracy is back in the room.
Making expertise raise the floor& average on the d20 by changing 1d20 to 3d6 would make a huge difference in feel without raising the cap at all.

I don't remember what they did for it but I've seen a cleric & wizard both get expertise in perception & investigate respectively, they straight up had d20+17 before guidance or "and I help, that gives you advantage" advantage.

edit: Yes those two were in the same group same game
 

Pauln6

Adventurer
Making expertise raise the floor& average on the d20 by changing 1d20 to 3d6 would make a huge difference in feel without raising the cap at all.

I don't remember what they did for it but I've seen a cleric & wizard both get expertise in perception & investigate respectively, they straight up had d20+17 before guidance or "and I help, that gives you advantage" advantage.

edit: Yes those two were in the same group same game
One other option is that expertise replaces your ability score bonus rather than stacking so it's more useful in abilities where you don't have a high stat.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I have always thought that the Cleric was the best-designed class in 5e, since there was such a diversity of builds available (STR, DEX, WIS, CHA can all be primary stats and the class remains viable), and each subclass really felt different to play.

I am really hoping changes to the Cleric will not be substantial. (Plus, how many subclasses will we get? If it's just one (light/life, I'd guess) it will be hard to get a clear sense of what the class holds.
One D&D strikes again! :p
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
To blanketly ban talking about gods when talking about religion is just as dismissive the other way.
Right. The cleric should absolutely talk about gods, and also have a portion talking about being able to be clerics of a philosophy or ideal like prior editions did. Then let the group figure out which it's going to be.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
On the subject of the cleric:
  • I like the "Holy Order" mechanic--basically, the decision to be a "weapons cleric" or a "magic cleric" is no longer dependent on domains, it's a separate choice made at 2nd level. However, the scholar option feels incredibly underwhelming compared to the other two. Even allowing for the fact that it's much easier to get heavy armor training now, I can't imagine picking a few knowledge skill bonuses over a) heavy armor or b) rapid Channel Divinity recharge.
I can. There are a lot of us who don't base every decision around combat. I would use the clerical expertise option for some of my characters to be sure..........if I played enough to be able to use my ideas.
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Divine Intervention is an odd choice when they called out that "Mother May I" is something that they're trying to remove from the game. That ability (while I love the story implications) is entirely up to the DM to decide what to do with. You know, if it ever happens, which will be almost never.
It's not Mother May I since you are not asking the DM's permission to use it. You get to use it when you declare it to be used, just like any other action. Then the DM narrates the result, just like any other action.
 




Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
No I kind of agree with @FitzTheRuke. Divine intervention is one of those things that sound great in theory & on occasion even generate cool stories. The important part often overlooked is the constant "I want to try divine intervention" every session or two just to make an attempt where everyone sits on pins & needles waiting to see if bob gets a thing he's almost certain to not get.
I like the low chance for divine intervention from the deity. Deities are busy people. That said, there should be a greater chance if you fail of say an angel of some sort being sent to help. Like "If you roll a number equal to or lower than your Cleric level, the divine power intervenes. If you fail, but roll equal to or lower than 3 times your level, your god sends a divine servant to aid you."
 


rules.mechanic

Craft homebrewer
Why would a cantrip be able to basically mind control a god and make them more likely to respond?
:) I'm assuming you'd have more luck guiding/inspiring the cleric to ask better, than you would by targeting the god. But I'm now tempted to give it a try next time I have cleric npc - they'd be due some heavy consequences! To be fair, the current "under-level" roll is more about the PC's reputation/seniority that it is about their skill (?proficiency) or talent/ability (?wisdom), so the current design intent may well be the god's roll rather than the cleric's
 


Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
One D&D strikes again! :p
And yet, how wrong I was. I have aclear sense of what they are thinking with this class, even though I didn't expect to based on one subclass (in part since Holy orders appears to integrate at least two subclasses into the main chassis for clerics.)
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I like the low chance for divine intervention from the deity. Deities are busy people. That said, there should be a greater chance if you fail of say an angel of some sort being sent to help. Like "If you roll a number equal to or lower than your Cleric level, the divine power intervenes. If you fail, but roll equal to or lower than 3 times your level, your god sends a divine servant to aid you."
So are thge rest of us. We come together for a couple hours each week to play d&d. Divine intervention means that someone is going to burn up a couple minutes each session hoping for a minimal role just to make the effort. On the off chance that they actually succeed everyone spends more time staring at each other & someone needs to decide on a result that's both useful & relevant to "It's a new day so I might as well"
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Divine Intervention needs to be worded like Limited Wish from the Genie Warlock:

L11: As an action, you can speak your desire to your Genie's Vessel, requesting the effect of one spell that is 6th level or lower and has a casting time of 1 action. The spell can be from any class's spell list, and you don't need to meet the requirements in that spell, including costly components; the spell simply takes effect as part of this action.

Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish 1d4 long rests.

Capstone: When you use Divine Intervention, you can choose spells from up to 7th or regain a number of Channel Divinity equal to half your proficiency bonus.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So are thge rest of us. We come together for a couple hours each week to play d&d. Divine intervention means that someone is going to burn up a couple minutes each session hoping for a minimal role just to make the effort. On the off chance that they actually succeed everyone spends more time staring at each other & someone needs to decide on a result that's both useful & relevant to "It's a new day so I might as well"
I don't see how success on one ability needs to be guaranteed for you to accomplish that. Are you going to ask for monsters to automatically miss all saving throws next? Because lots of caster turns are wasted on successful saves.

What I described where if you fail but get within 3x level with the roll and get a planar servant sent to help is plenty sufficient to make that ability very useful.
 

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