NG vs. NE: Neutral Evil is Victorious!

[Gansk]

OOC: To avoid any confusion, I should have said 'backside' instead of 'tail'. Danuba is not squeezing behind the wall if that is what was interpreted by 'tail'.

Kazaam does not dodge the lightning (20-2 Ref save). He survives the 86 damage and has 243 hp left.

Danuba:[sblock]You can breathe again in round 317.[/sblock]

Kazaam's turn in round 314.

 

[PJSlavner]

Kazaam will again try to fire the same sort of missiles at Danuba, then will disappear and reappear at 105N40E.

 

[Gansk]

The missiles have no effect (22 CL check).

Danuba starts round 315. Kazaam is now at 105N40E.

 

[PJSlavner]

Where is Danuba?

 

[Greybar]

Danuba is at 85n70e when Kazaam appears. She takes a five-foot step to 90n65e and launches a full attack of tail, then bite, then wing and wing - against Kazaam's sword. (Improved Sunder, so no AoO) If the sword is destroyed and there are still attacks remaining, make them normal attacks (envisioning breaking the sword and then trying to break his arm )

Gansk:
[sblock]
Power Attack +8
Improved Sunder gives a +4, he has a -2 on attacks for being shaken, so I'm hopeful.
[/sblock]

 

[PJSlavner]

Sunder attacks are standard actions which do not substitute for melee attacks, so you only get one sunder attack in a round. Danuba might want to change her action.

This is yet another thing I learned from TBoAA, with help from Infiniti.

 

[Greybar]

Can you give me a pointer to the discussion. The RAW is:

"You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding."

Not: "As a standard action, ..."

Though much less authoritatively, I was trying to emulate Stonebear from PirateCat's SH...


Edit:
The Rules of the Game column on trip allows multiple attacks combined with trip, and trip uses the exact same terminology as sunder...

and, another Rules of the Game here:
"Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an object as a melee attack. You usually use the attack or full attack action for a sunder, but you also can sunder as an attack of opportunity."

 

[Infiniti2000]

It is argued whether sunder is a standard action or not.

The rules are:

1. Sunder is listed in the combat action section as a standard action. Note that disarm, grapple, and trip are not.
2. In the Sunder description, it is called an 'attack' and not specifically listed as a standard action. This part is similar to disarm, grapple, and trip.
3. Unlike disarm, grapple, and trip, sunder is not called out in the footnote "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

The only evidence that Sunder is not a standard action is that the description says 'attack' and that the other special actions (disarm, trip, and grapple) are not also explicitly standard actions. However, as noted above, Sunder is definitely different. IMO, the above evidence is overwhelmingly convincing, but others will argue differently.

 

[PJSlavner]

On the table on page 141 of the PHB, it shows sunder as a standard action. In contrast, it shows trip and grapple as a varied types of actions (the last part of the table), taking the place of a melee attack. I agree that the wording on page 158 for trip and sunder is similar (and vague), but the table more explicitly states how they can be used. The tables in the SRD (under Actions in Combat) are the same as in the PHB.

 

[Greybar]

Yeah, I'm reading an argument on this on the wizards board here on that. The counter argument give there is that tables are secondary to text in interpreting the rules (per 3.5 errata).

The folks then go on to quote two contradictory answers from WoTC tech support:

A gentleman by the name of Darrin at Wizards Customer Support has clarified this issue for me.

1. The table entry for Sunder is wrong
2. Sunder is per melee attack not a Standard Action
3. Special Attacks that do not specifically mention Standard Action or Full Round Action, are treated as any normal attack.

If anyone would like more info Darrin is happy to help.

and

"Although the description is ambiguous, the fact that sunder provoques an AoO suggests it is a Standard Action"

Teehee!

Like an unarmed strike, a disarm, a grapple, a ranged attack, loading a light crossbow, standing up from prone, rapid-reloading a light crossbow, or casting a single-action spell are all Standard Actions?

I don't have my PHB here, only my SRD - but isn't that the table that delineates what does and does not provoke an AoO?